[Bioconversion] processing p**p

Tue Jun 12 22:08:37 CDT 2007

Thanks, Horst.  I'll pick them both:  redox under aerobic conditions while
the tank is connected to the wetlands purification system, and then 56 C
temp of aerobic digestion after the tank is taken offline and drained for
solids removal --if I am understanding the two processes correctly.

Phil

Philip Anderson
Sustainable Living Design

Life support & life style in partnership
 with Nature and in harmony with the heart

11801 Pine Court
Monrovia, MD 21770-8802   USA     

Phone (301) 335-6051
Fax (301) 865-3642

  solarphil at comcast.net

-----Original Message-----
From: bioconversion-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:bioconversion-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of Horst Doelle
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 8:46 PM
To: Discussion of biological conversion to fuels and chemicals
Subject: Re: [Bioconversion] processing p**p

Phil,

Most colioforms are killed at 56 C, which is being obtained during 
composting or at low redoxpotential which is being obtained in anaerobic 
digestion. Take your pick.

Horst Doelle
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Philip Anderson" <solarphil at comcast.net>
To: "'Discussion of biological conversion to fuels and chemicals'" 
<bioconversion at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Bioconversion] processing p**p

> Thanks Tom. Do you know the temperature and sustained cooking period
> required to kill colioforms and other bad guys?  Seems I've heard that
> aerobic compost production purifies the stock too, at fairly low temps.
>
> We could include in the anaerobic digester design a stainless removable 
> tray
> on which the remaining solids settle.  Then remove the tray to a solar 
> oven
> comprising an insulated box with thermosiphon air panel on the south
> circulating solar heated air all around the tray, without venting --will 
> get
> quite hot.
>
> Phil
>
> Philip Anderson
> Sustainable Living Design
>
>
> Life support & life style in partnership
> with Nature and in harmony with the heart
>
> 11801 Pine Court
> Monrovia, MD 21770-8802   USA
>
> Phone (301) 335-6051
> Fax (301) 865-3642
>
>  solarphil at comcast.net
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bioconversion-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> [mailto:bioconversion-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of Thomas 
> Pirotte
> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 10:27 AM
> To: Discussion of biological conversion to fuels and chemicals
> Subject: [Bioconversion] processing p**p
>
> Sorry if I'm contributing out of turn:
> If all you are trying to accomplish with your human waste processing is
> the elimination of infectious bacteria, they are quite easy to kill by
> heating.  The volumes are small...   and, solar ovens (usually used to
> cook food, but easily adaptable) would provide plenty of heat!
> Thomas P. Pirotte, M.D.
> Springfield, Missouri
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bioconversion-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> [mailto:bioconversion-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of Philip
> Anderson
> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 11:08
> To: 'Discussion of biological conversion to fuels and chemicals'
> Subject: Re: [Bioconversion] methane digester and greenhouse gas
> reductionfordemonstration post-carbon world home
>
> Thanks, Hooroo.
>
> Regarding the sums,the CO2 released by today's feedstock is today's CO2,
> which is better than introducing ancient CO2 from fossil fuel
> combustion,
> which is an unnatural addition to today's CO2 pool and cycle.  However,
> I
> would like to know if I am reducing today's CO2 release by
> anaerobic-methane-combustion-CO2 versus the release of CO2 of the same
> feed
> stock by decomposition in Nature.  This would be a great plus in a world
> where we need to not only reduce human-induced CO2 emmission but natural
> emission as well, since the atmosphere is overloaded and the Nature's
> carbon-fixers are depleted.
>
> Regarding the extent of conversion of human waste, you are saying the
> longer
> the anaerobic digestion takes place, the more complete the conversion to
> a
> benign compost.  Question is are we talking months or years after
> feedstock
> introduction ceases.  I need to know how long I need the offline tank
> rest
> to assure a benign compost.  The second, active tank can stay online for
> years if need be to allow the resting tank to complete the anaerobic
> digestion.
>
> PHil
>
>
> Philip Anderson
> Sustainable Living Design
>
>
> Life support & life style in partnership
> with Nature and in harmony with the heart
>
> 11801 Pine Court
> Monrovia, MD 21770-8802   USA
>
> Phone (301) 335-6051
> Fax (301) 865-3642
>
>  solarphil at comcast.net
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bioconversion-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> [mailto:bioconversion-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of Paul
> Harris
> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 2:09 AM
> To: Discussion of biological conversion to fuels and chemicals
> Subject: Re: [Bioconversion] methane digester and greenhouse gas
> reduction
> fordemonstration post-carbon world home
>
> G'day Philip,
>
> Without doing the sums anaerobic digestion wins, as it relaces fossil
> fuels as well as capturing a 20 times more potent GHG!
>
> The longer the retention time and the more steps/hosts waste goes
> through the safer it is (and the more robust the system is!).
>
> Hope this helps,
> HOOROO
>
> Philip Anderson wrote:
>>
>> Greetings bioconversioneers!  I$B!G(Bm back after a year -Phil
> Anderson
> - and
>> still working on a house plan which demonstrates living in partnership
> with
>> Nature, including benign, site-produced energy and net zero greenhouse
> gas
>> production.
>>
>> I want to produce methane gas for cooking in the first cell of a
> constructed
>> wetlands blackwater treatment system. This first cell is in effect a
> septic
>> tank which I will seal (polyethylene tank) to use like ARTI$B!G(Bs
> domestic
>> biogas plant (http://www.arti-india.org/content/view/45/52/) which
> operates
>> without animal fodder (so it is feasible to be used off the farm in
>> America).  But our plant will also digest human waste in addition to
> food
>> scraps and landscape cuttings as ARTI$B!G(Bs uses.
>>
>> I will construct two first cells (two $B!H(Bseptic tanks$B!I(B) in
> the
> wetlands
>> blackwater treatment system, so one can be online while the other
> rests
> and
>> its digested residue is harvested as compost.
>>
>> Please comment:
>>
>> 1.  Is this system actually reducing the greenhouse effect which the
>> feedstock would have produced in Nature aerobically?  See
> Wikepedia$B!G(Bs
>> equation for methane combustion below.  Per unit of feedstock what
> produces
>> more greenhouse effect:   anaerobic digestion where the methane is
> captured
>> and burned releasing CO2 and water, or aerobic digestion where CO2 is
>> released without burning?
>>
>> Per Wikepedia:  $B!H(B Burning
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combustion>
> one
>> molecule <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecule>  of methane in the
> presence
>> of oxygen <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen>  releases one molecule
> of
>> CO2 (carbon <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide>  dioxide)
> and
> two
>> molecules of H <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water> 2O:
>>
>> CH4 + 2O2 $B"*(B CO2 + 2H2O $B!H(B
>>
>> Another way to phrase the question: given the same unit of feedstock
> is
> less
>> C02 released to the atmosphere by the anaerobic-methane-combustion
> system
>> than the aerobic system?
>>
>> 2.  I$B!G(Bm thinking that at least the burning of the methane from
> the
>> $B!H(Bseptic$B!I(B cell /tank (rather than its finding its way out
> to
> the
>> atmosphere), is reducing the greenhouse effect since methane has about
> 20
>> times more greenhouse effect than C02, and the combustion formula
> shows
> one
>> methane molecule yielding only one carbon dioxide molecule in the
> combustion
>> reaction  --95% reduction in greenhouse effect?   Or would the same
> unit
> of
>> feedstock produce the same amount of CO2 via either process (aerobic
>> production of CO2 or anaerobic production of methane which is then
> burned
> to
>> produce CO2)?
>>
>> 3.  Is the feedstock in aerobic digestion converted to a material
> which
> can
>> be used as compost or is it unsafe sludge? How long does it take to
> produce
>> a safe compost, and how do we know when this process is complete?
> Again,
> my
>> design calls for two anaerobic cells, one of which will be online
> /handling
>> blackwater while the other is cleared of the digested material for use
> as
>> compost.
>>
>> Again, the benefits I would like to have from this system:   compost
> from
>> human waste, site-produced cooking fuel and net zero or even reduced
>> greenhouse effect as compared with the gases produced by the natural
> aerobic
>> and anaerobic decomposition of the same feedstock.  Do I have the
> system
> I$B!G(B
>> m aiming for?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Bioconversion at listserv.repp.org
>>
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> g
>
> -- 
> Mr. Paul Harris
> Room G8, Leske Building
> Faculty of Sciences,
> The  University of Adelaide, Roseworthy Campus, AUSTRALIA 5371
> Ph    : +61 8 8303 7880
> Fax   : +61 8 8303 7979
> mailto:paul.harris at adelaide.edu.au
> I now use "MailGuard" - if you do not get a reply please make contact
> again (by fax?)
> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/directory/paul.harris
> Member IOBB http://www.iobbnet.org/drupal/
>
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