[Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 11, Issue 11

Thu May 17 06:26:23 CDT 2007

Hi Len and Everybody,

I made a flow chart of the information excerpts from the "white paper" you cited.  This information really helped my over view.  
I've been poking around and found a few bits of interesting information.  A huge cost of a larger system are the bulk tanks.  Used tanks are cheaper but often cracked or polluted with whatever the farmer had been spraying.  Farmers around here clean these tanks by scrubbing them inside and out with straight vinegar (very cost effective).  A cracked tank can be repaired with welding.  This welding takes place at much lower temperatures than metal welding.  The welding is done with lite weight/ hand held equipment.  Take a razor knife and slice a diagonal along each side of the crack so you can go back and fill the v-shaped slip with new material.  One needs plenty of air flow around them while their working to avoid the possibility of inhaling chlorine gas. The tool looks and feels like a relatively heavy wood burning tool or soldering iron.  

The material CPVC really opens up applications for common household tools at a time when regular tools are ineffective with electronics.  On a modern car or tractor farmer are faced with fully equipped workshops but they only change the oil in their machines.  At least around here, 4 inch CPVC fittings and below are available at any hardware store.  I say CPVC instead of PVC because biogas (While the gas pressure coming off the digester is at very low pressures) it is still explosive.  One factor in the fermentation process is temperature (about 95 degrees F.)  PVC becomes malleable at about 100 degrees F less than CPVC.  We need to build in safety wherever we can. I didn't know all this stuff before poking around this site and others and putting together the answer how would a system actually be built. 

We live in the northern latitudes and our winters easily get to -20 degrees F. In trying to achieve the 95 degree F mark I am considering building the walls a piling dirt up to 6-8 feet up the sides.  in order to take advantage of the consistent tempts below ground.  Another increment of temperature control would come from in floor circulating heat.  This way using the  cement floor as a thermal mass the heat doesn't separate between the floor and the ceiling like radiant heat or forced air. The walls need to be heavily insulated.  These requirement are already happening to many of the new pole barns going up in our area.  Working on a car or truck is like a lizard laying on a hot rock.  

Concerning scrubbers,  one report I read says that drawing the biogas through composted cow manure can remove 85% of the H2S.  I think the composting tends to break down the lignin and makes the carbon more accessible to the sulfur.  I picture this stage kind of like the filter on a cigarette.   Another solid medium is a product called Iron Sponge but I've heard it "Rat Holes".  This makes it inefficient.  There are other products on the market.  Many of these companies want to sell the equipment along with the medium.  There are liquid scrubbers using ethanol.  But I want to create a system I don't have to baby sit all the time. A passive system sounds more cost effective and easier to operate. 
I hope some of these ideas help.

Mike Walter 

> From: digestion-request at listserv.repp.org> Subject: Digestion Digest, Vol 11, Issue 11> To: digestion at listserv.repp.org> Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 20:51:25 -0500> > Send Digestion mailing list submissions to> digestion at listserv.repp.org> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_listserv.repp.org> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to> digestion-request at listserv.repp.org> > You can reach the person managing the list at> digestion-owner at listserv.repp.org> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific> than "Re: Contents of Digestion digest..."> > > Today's Topics:> > 1. No Stupid Questions.... (Donna Soroka)> 2. Re: Digestion Digest, Vol 11, Issue 10 (Mike Walter)> 3. Re: Digestion Digest, Vol 11, Issue 10 --- AD and how it> works. (Len Walde)> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------> > Message: 1> Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 12:03:42 -0700 (PDT)> From: Donna Soroka <horses3dog1 at yahoo.com>> Subject: [Digestion] No Stupid Questions....> To: digestion at listserv.repp.org> Message-ID: <863096.90750.qm at web30512.mail.mud.yahoo.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1> > Sounds to me like we have at least one elitist in this group that has shunned the idea of sharing information. No, not everyone in this forum has unlimited access to internet resources. No, not everyone in this forum is computer savvy enough at this immediate time to know where to even begin to look for answers to questions. No, not everyone in this forum is rude enough to tell another member where to get off just because he didn't want to answer what HE determined was an impertinent question. If I may be so bold, I would think most of us joined this forum to LEARN. With all of the information on the internet to be gleaned IF you know where to look, it's easy to understand some possible confusion and questions asked to clear up that confusion.> > Those with knowledge already attained are invaluable to this forum, but I do believe a little more acceptance and tolerance for those who DON'T happen know everything might be in order here.> > -Donna> > > > ---------------------------------> Got a little couch potato? > Check out fun summer activities for kids.> > ------------------------------> > Message: 2> Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 22:53:53 +0000> From: Mike Walter <sailingmike50 at hotmail.com>> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 11, Issue 10> To: <digestion at listserv.repp.org>> Message-ID: <BAY126-W8F8EB4DC74D86C406E933B73D0 at phx.gbl>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"> > Hi,> In reply to Mel's response about the diversity of a general culture, I "googled" the word co-fermentation and found that by adding 10% fat of some sort (up to 30%) could double the gas output of a culture. Considering the bulk one deals with doubling this sounding promising. > Mike Walter > > > > > From: digestion-request at listserv.repp.org> Subject: Digestion Digest, Vol 11, Issue 10> To: digestion at listserv.repp.org> Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 13:00:06 -0400> > Send Digestion mailing list submissions to> digestion at listserv.repp.org> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_listserv.repp.org> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to> digestion-request at listserv.repp.org> > You can reach the person managing the list at> digestion-owner at listserv.repp.org> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific> than "Re: Contents of Digestion digest..."> > > Today's Topics:> > 1. Re: Digestion Digest, Vol 11, Issue 5 (Carolyn Henri)> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------> > Message: 1> Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:07:24 -0700> From: "Carolyn Henri" <Carolyn at ResourceConsulting.us>> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 11, Issue 5> To: <digestion at listserv.repp.org>> Message-ID: <029f01c79685$0458be50$0201a8c0 at OFFICE>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";> reply-type=original> > Don't be dismayed, Steve. There is no such thing as a stupid question. I > am also not a digestion expert, but have learned a great deal from this > forum and made several good contacts who have been helpful in directing me > towards information.> Carolyn Henri> > **************************************************> Carolyn J. Henri, Ph.D.> Resource Consulting Service, LLC> 4805 Belvedere Ave.> Everett, WA 98203> > Phone: (425) 290-3181> Fax: (425) 290-7586> Cell: (425) 308-1634> E-Mail: Carolyn at ResourceConsulting.us> Website: www.ResourceConsulting.us> > **************************************************> ----- Original Message ----- > From: <digestion-request at listserv.repp.org>> To: <digestion at listserv.repp.org>> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 10:00 AM> Subject: Digestion Digest, Vol 11, Issue 5> > > > Send Digestion mailing list submissions to> > digestion at listserv.repp.org> >> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit> > http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_listserv.repp.org> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to> > digestion-request at listserv.repp.org> >> > You can reach the person managing the list at> > digestion-owner at listserv.repp.org> >> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific> > than "Re: Contents of Digestion digest..."> >> >> > Today's Topics:> >> > 1. An apology...and an excuse (Steve Verhey)> > 2. Re: An apology...and an excuse (finstein at envsci.rutgers.edu)> >> >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------> >> > Message: 1> > Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 07:44:17 -0700> > From: "Steve Verhey" <verheys at hotmail.com>> > Subject: [Digestion] An apology...and an excuse> > To: finstein at envsci.rutgers.edu, duncanjmartin at eircom.net> > Cc: digestion at listserv.repp.org> > Message-ID: <BAY133-F10A55ED1E41C782C76038CA9400 at phx.gbl>> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed> >> >> > There's been talk in the media here about what constitutes a good apology,> > so I know this one will be of low quality, but I am sorry for asking such > > a> > simple question. I do have access to reasonable online sources, but not a> > good physical library, and I don't actively work in this field -- I'm just> > interested in it, and in energy issues in general. I'm pretty sure it > > would> > take me longer than 10 minutes to answer my question. My background is in> > molecular biology and biochemistry, not all that useful. This relatively> > quiet forum seemed a reasonable place to ask the question, which I didn't> > think was off-topic.> >> > That said, the question was my ignorant response to the difficulty/large> > uncertaintly in estimating methane output, which must be mostly due to> > digester-to-digester variability of microbial communities. My impression > > is> > that AD is done with whatever organisms happen to be present, but it > > seemed> > to me that (as some products claim to do with composting) it might be> > possible to inoculate with a particularly enthusiastic microbial > > community,> > or even engineer better methanogens. Apparently this is either not > > possible,> > or is not considered worth thinking about.> >> > Thanks for your patience,> >> > Steve> >> >>From: finstein at envsci.rutgers.edu> >>To: "Duncan Martin" <duncanjmartin at eircom.net>> >>CC: "Steve Verhey" <verheys at hotmail.com>, digestion at listserv.repp.org> >>Subject: Re: [Digestion] Calculating methane production> >>Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 07:32:55 -0400 (EDT)> >>> >>Duncan -> >>> >>As you say (in effect): one man's junk (one microbe's metabolic waste) is> >>another man's treasure (another microbe's substrate). But questioning the> >>complexity of the metabolic web terminating in methane was not what> >>started the thread. Rather, the question asked was - how to estimate> >>methane production.> >>> >>Mel> >>> >>> >> > Come on lads!!> >> >> >> > I might speak only for myself but I think it's an abuse of a forum like> >> > this> >> > for folk to use it as a replacement for ten minutes work in a> >>half-decent> >> > public library or on the internet. I'm more tolerant when the enquiry> >> > comes> >> > from somewhere remote. But I don't think the USA qualifies!> >> >> >> > For info, Steve, yes there is a mass of research and "a particularly> >>good> >> > methanogenic microbial community" is characterized by a great diversity> >>of> >> > species, very many of which are not methanogens. Now, go read!> >> >> >> > Fraternally yours> >> >> >> > Duncan J Martin> >> >> >> > Chair> >> > Republic of Ireland Centre> >> > Chartered Institution of Wastes Management> >> >> >> > ================================> >> > CONTACT DETAILS> >> > Duncan J Martin, PhD, CEng, CSci, MIEI, MCIWM, MIChemE> >> > 24 Townsfield, Cloughjordan, N Tipperary, Ireland> >> > Mobile: +353 86 8377 906> >> > Home: +353 505 42087> >> > Email: duncanjmartin at eircom.net> >> > ================================> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message -----> >> > From: "Steve Verhey" <verheys at hotmail.com>> >> > To: <finstein at envsci.rutgers.edu>; <digestion at listserv.repp.org>> >> > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 11:13 PM> >> > Subject: Re: [Digestion] Calculating methane production> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> Presumably not all organisms in an anaerobic environment are> >> >> methanogens.> >> >> Is> >> >> there research on what a particularly good methanogenic microbial> >> >> community> >> >> looks like? Maybe it's even possible to make an inoculum that would > >> >> get> >> >> things started off in the right direction?> >> >>> >> >> Steve Verhey, Ph.D> >> >> Biologist at Large> >> >> Ellensburg, WA USA> >> >>> >> > _________________________________________________________________> > Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon.> > http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglineapril07> >> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> >> > Message: 2> > Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 11:14:03 -0400 (EDT)> > From: finstein at envsci.rutgers.edu> > Subject: Re: [Digestion] An apology...and an excuse> > To: "Steve Verhey" <verheys at hotmail.com>> > Cc: finstein at envsci.rutgers.edu, digestion at listserv.repp.org> > Message-ID:> > <50830.72.84.59.43.1178291643.squirrel at webmail.envsci.rutgers.edu>> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1> >> > Not a problem, Steve -> >> > Your background in molecular biology and biochemistry is actually central> > to the matter. But - and a big but it is - not in the clean context of> > pure culture systems being fed nice uniform substrates. Think of the vast> > range of substrates in garbage, and the vast array of organisms and enzyme> > systems needed to transform that mess to CO2, H2O and CH4! The idea of> > adding some special inoculum or biocatalyst to bring it about - or even to> > accelerate it - becomes absurd. Same for composting, sewage treatment, etc> > etc. Think nature guided by appropriate technology.> >> > Mel> >> >> >> >> There's been talk in the media here about what constitutes a good > >> apology,> >> so I know this one will be of low quality, but I am sorry for asking > >> such> >> a> >> simple question. I do have access to reasonable online sources, but not a> >> good physical library, and I don't actively work in this field -- I'm > >> just> >> interested in it, and in energy issues in general. I'm pretty sure it> >> would> >> take me longer than 10 minutes to answer my question. My background is in> >> molecular biology and biochemistry, not all that useful. This relatively> >> quiet forum seemed a reasonable place to ask the question, which I didn't> >> think was off-topic.> >>> >> That said, the question was my ignorant response to the difficulty/large> >> uncertaintly in estimating methane output, which must be mostly due to> >> digester-to-digester variability of microbial communities. My impression> >> is> >> that AD is done with whatever organisms happen to be present, but it> >> seemed> >> to me that (as some products claim to do with composting) it might be> >> possible to inoculate with a particularly enthusiastic microbial> >> community,> >> or even engineer better methanogens. Apparently this is either not> >> possible,> >> or is not considered worth thinking about.> >>> >> Thanks for your patience,> >>> >> Steve> >>> >>>From: finstein at envsci.rutgers.edu> >>>To: "Duncan Martin" <duncanjmartin at eircom.net>> >>>CC: "Steve Verhey" <verheys at hotmail.com>, digestion at listserv.repp.org> >>>Subject: Re: [Digestion] Calculating methane production> >>>Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 07:32:55 -0400 (EDT)> >>>> >>>Duncan -> >>>> >>>As you say (in effect): one man's junk (one microbe's metabolic waste) is> >>>another man's treasure (another microbe's substrate). But questioning the> >>>complexity of the metabolic web terminating in methane was not what> >>>started the thread. Rather, the question asked was - how to estimate> >>>methane production.> >>>> >>>Mel> >>>> >>>> >>> > Come on lads!!> >>> >> >>> > I might speak only for myself but I think it's an abuse of a forum> >>> like> >>> > this> >>> > for folk to use it as a replacement for ten minutes work in a> >>>half-decent> >>> > public library or on the internet. I'm more tolerant when the enquiry> >>> > comes> >>> > from somewhere remote. But I don't think the USA qualifies!> >>> >> >>> > For info, Steve, yes there is a mass of research and "a particularly> >>>good> >>> > methanogenic microbial community" is characterized by a great> >>> diversity> >>>of> >>> > species, very many of which are not methanogens. Now, go read!> >>> >> >>> > Fraternally yours> >>> >> >>> > Duncan J Martin> >>> >> >>> > Chair> >>> > Republic of Ireland Centre> >>> > Chartered Institution of Wastes Management> >>> >> >>> > ================================> >>> > CONTACT DETAILS> >>> > Duncan J Martin, PhD, CEng, CSci, MIEI, MCIWM, MIChemE> >>> > 24 Townsfield, Cloughjordan, N Tipperary, Ireland> >>> > Mobile: +353 86 8377 906> >>> > Home: +353 505 42087> >>> > Email: duncanjmartin at eircom.net> >>> > ================================> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> > ----- Original Message -----> >>> > From: "Steve Verhey" <verheys at hotmail.com>> >>> > To: <finstein at envsci.rutgers.edu>; <digestion at listserv.repp.org>> >>> > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 11:13 PM> >>> > Subject: Re: [Digestion] Calculating methane production> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >> Presumably not all organisms in an anaerobic environment are> >>> >> methanogens.> >>> >> Is> >>> >> there research on what a particularly good methanogenic microbial> >>> >> community> >>> >> looks like? Maybe it's even possible to make an inoculum that would> >>> get> >>> >> things started off in the right direction?> >>> >>> >>> >> Steve Verhey, Ph.D> >>> >> Biologist at Large> >>> >> Ellensburg, WA USA> >>> >>> >>> >> _________________________________________________________________> >> Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon.> >> http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglineapril07> >>> >> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> >> > _______________________________________________> > Digestion mailing list> > Digestion at listserv.repp.org> > http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_listserv.repp.org> >> > End of Digestion Digest, Vol 11, Issue 5> > ****************************************> >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------> > _______________________________________________> Digestion mailing list> Digestion at listserv.repp.org> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_listserv.repp.org> > End of Digestion Digest, Vol 11, Issue 10> *****************************************> _________________________________________________________________> Add some color. Personalize your inbox with your favorite colors.> www.windowslive-hotmail.com/learnmore/personalize.html?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGLM_HMWL_reten_addcolor_0507> > ------------------------------> > Message: 3> Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 17:49:39 -0700> From: "Len Walde" <sigma at ix.netcom.com>> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 11, Issue 10 --- AD and> how it works.> To: "Mike Walter" <sailingmike50 at hotmail.com>,> <digestion at listserv.repp.org>> Message-ID: <0b0801c79754$1c3ceb70$0a0110ac at Len>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";> reply-type=original> > Hello to all:> > The following may shed some light on the general subject of AD. This is > from an unpublished "White Paper" that is still under development, and > because of that, I am not prepared to enter into any further discussion or > answer any questions. By searching many of the key words herein, one should > be able to find your own answers. This is a very basic description of the > process. Good luck as you explore the Learning Curve.> > Len Walde, ,P.E.> > Sigma Energy Engineering, Inc.> Creative Problem Solving & Process Engineering> Serving Agriculture, Mining, Industry & Commerce> through "Symbiotic Recycling" tm> Est. 1985> > Ph: 925-254-7633> E-mail: sigma at ix.netcom.com> > 5.2 Brief Introduction to Anaerobic Digestion> > > > Methane production by anaerobic digestion is formed solely through the > activity of bacteria, unlike composting in which fungi and lower creatures > are also involved in the degradation process. Microbial growth and methane > production is very slow at ambient temperatures. They tend to occur > naturally wherever high concentrations of wet organic matter accumulate in > the absence of dissolved oxygen, most commonly in the bottom sediments of > lakes and ponds, in swamps, peat bogs, intestines of animals, and in the > anaerobic interiors of landfill sites.> > > > This process involves the biological conversion of the organic components of > biomass into simple products by various reactions and interactions that take > place among the bacteria known as methanogens and non-methanogens and the > substrates fed into the digester as inputs. This is a complex > physio-chemical and biological process involving different factors and > stages or steps of change. This process of digestion (methanization) is the > breaking down of inputs that are complex organic materials and is achieved > through three steps.> > > > Anaerobic Digestion occurs through the symbiotic action of a complex > consortium of bacteria. Hydrolytic microorganisms, including common food > spoilage bacteria, break down complex organic wastes. These sub-units are > then fermented into short-chain fatty acids, carbon dioxide, and hydrogen > gases.> > > > Very specialized microorganisms then convert the complex mixture of > short-chain fatty acids to primarily acetic acid - (in fact, a combination > of 7 acids) with the release of more carbon dioxide, and hydrogen gases. > Finally, methanization produces biogas from the acetic acid, hydrogen and > carbon dioxide. Biogas is a mixture of methane, carbon dioxide, a small > amount of hydrogen sulphide and numerous trace elements.> > > > According to some, the two key biological issues are determining the most > favorable conditions for each process stage and how non-optimal > circumstances affect each process stage as a whole, and the governing role > of hydrogen generation and consumption.> > > > Step 1. Hydrolysis: The waste materials of plant and animal origins consist > mainly of carbohydrates, lipids, proteins and inorganic materials. Large > molecular complex substances are solubilized into simpler ones with the help > of extracellular enzyme released by the bacteria. This stage is also known > as the polymer breakdown stage. For example, the cellulose consisting of > polymerized glucose is broken down to dimeric, and then to monomeric sugar > molecules (glucose) by cellulolytic bacteria.> > > > Step 2. Acidification: The monomers such as glucose which are produced in > Step 1 are fermented under anaerobic condition into various acids with the > help of enzymes produced by the acid forming bacteria. These acidogenic > bacteria are robust, hardy microorganisims which can double their population > every few hours, if properly fed. At this stage, the acidogenic or > acid-forming bacteria break down molecules of six atoms of carbon (glucose) > into molecules of less atoms of carbon (acids) which are in a more reduced > state than glucose. The principal acids produced in this process are acetic > acid, propionic acid, and butyric acid.> > > > Step 3. Methanization: The principle acids produced in Step 2 are processed > by methanogenic bacteria to produce methane. The reaction that takes place > in the process of methane production is called Methanization and is > expressed by the following equations.> > > > CH3COOH ? CH4 + CO2> > Acetic acid Methane Carbon dioxide> > > > 2CH3CH2OH + CO2 ? CH4 + 2CH3COOH> > Ethanol Carbon dioxide Methane Acetic acid> > > > CO2 + 4H2 ? CH4 + > 2H2O> > Carbon dioxide Hydrogen Methane Water> > > > These equations show that many products, by-products and intermediate > products are produced in the process of digestion of inputs in an anaerobic > condition before the final product (methane) is produced. Obviously, there > are many facilitating and inhibiting factors that play their role in the > process.> > > > Methanogenic bacteria develop slowly, taking 3 days to double their > population numbers, and are sensitive to a sudden change in physical and > chemical conditions. For example, a sudden fall in the slurry temperature > by even 2 deg. C may significantly affect their growth and the gas > production rate.> > > > Conventional anaerobic digesters are commonly designed to operate in either > the mesophilic temperature range (95?-105?F) or thermophilic temperature > range (125?-135?F).> > > > 6. About Sigma Energy Engineering, Inc.> > > > Sigma Energy Engineering Inc. a closely held California "S" Corporation, was > established in 1985. Sigma is a Consulting and Process Engineering Company, > specializing in recycling research and the development of technologies to > recycle "difficult-to-recycle" waste materials, and resource recovery. They > are presently focusing on the research and development of technologies to > recycle animal and agricultural waste into renewable energy and value-added > bio-products and commodities. The company is one the most experienced > California consulting and process engineering firms in their field. They > concentrate their research on the solution of diverse industrial, commercial > and agricultural waste management and recycling problems.> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Walter" <sailingmike50 at hotmail.com>> To: <digestion at listserv.repp.org>> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 3:53 PM> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 11, Issue 10> > > > Hi,> > In reply to Mel's response about the diversity of a general culture, I > > "googled" the word co-fermentation and found that by adding 10% fat of > > some sort (up to 30%) could double the gas output of a culture. > > Considering the bulk one deals with doubling this sounding promising.> > Mike Walter> >> >> >> >> From: digestion-request at listserv.repp.org> Subject: Digestion Digest, Vol > >> 11, Issue 10> To: digestion at listserv.repp.org> Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 > >> 13:00:06 -0400> > Send Digestion mailing list submissions to> > >> digestion at listserv.repp.org> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World > >> Wide Web, visit> > >> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_listserv.repp.org> > >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to> > >> digestion-request at listserv.repp.org> > You can reach the person managing > >> the list at> digestion-owner at listserv.repp.org> > When replying, please > >> edit your Subject line so it is more specific> than "Re: Contents of > >> Digestion digest..."> > > Today's Topics:> > 1. Re: Digestion Digest, Vol > >> 11, Issue 5 (Carolyn Henri)> > > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------> > >> > Message: 1> Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:07:24 -0700> From: "Carolyn > >> Henri" <Carolyn at ResourceConsulting.us>> Subject: Re: [Digestion] > >> Digestion Digest, Vol 11, Issue 5> To: <digestion at listserv.repp.org>> > >> Message-ID: <029f01c79685$0458be50$0201a8c0 at OFFICE>> Content-Type: > >> text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";> reply-type=original> > > >> Don't be dismayed, Steve. There is no such thing as a stupid question. I > >> > am also not a digestion expert, but have learned a great deal from this > >> > forum and made several good contacts who have been helpful in directing > >> me > towards information.> Carolyn Henri> > > >> **************************************************> Carolyn J. Henri, > >> Ph.D.> Resource Consulting Service, LLC> 4805 Belvedere Ave.> Everett, WA > >> 98203> > Phone: (425) 290-3181> Fax: (425) 290-7586> Cell: (425) > >> 308-1634> E-Mail: Carolyn at ResourceConsulting.us> Website: > >> www.ResourceConsulting.us> > > >> **************************************************> ----- Original > >> Message ----- > From: <digestion-request at listserv.repp.org>> To: > >> <digestion at listserv.repp.org>> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 10:00 AM> > >> Subject: Digestion Digest, Vol 11, Issue 5> > > > Send Digestion mailing > >> list submissions to> > digestion at listserv.repp.org> >> > To subscribe or > >> unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit> > > >> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_listserv.repp.org> > > >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to> > > >> digestion-request at listserv.repp.org> >> > You can reach the person > >> managing the list at> > digestion-owner at listserv.repp.org> >> > When > >> replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific> > than > >> "Re: Contents of Digestion digest..."> >> >> > Today's Topics:> >> > 1. > >> An apology...and an excuse (Steve Verhey)> > 2. Re: An apology...and an > >> excuse (finstein at envsci.rutgers.edu)> >> >> > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------> > >> >> > Message: 1> > Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 07:44:17 -0700> > From: "Steve > >> Verhey" <verheys at hotmail.com>> > Subject: [Digestion] An apology...and an > >> excuse> > To: finstein at envsci.rutgers.edu, duncanjmartin at eircom.net> > > >> Cc: digestion at listserv.repp.org> > Message-ID: > >> <BAY133-F10A55ED1E41C782C76038CA9400 at phx.gbl>> > Content-Type: > >> text/plain; format=flowed> >> >> > There's been talk in the media here > >> about what constitutes a good apology,> > so I know this one will be of > >> low quality, but I am sorry for asking such > > a> > simple question. I > >> do have access to reasonable online sources, but not a> > good physical > >> library, and I don't actively work in this field -- I'm just> > > >> interested in it, and in energy issues in general. I'm pretty sure it > > > >> would> > take me longer than 10 minutes to answer my question. My > >> background is in> > molecular biology and biochemistry, not all that > >> useful. This relatively> > quiet forum seemed a reasonable place to ask > >> the question, which I didn't> > think was off-topic.> >> > That said, the > >> question was my ignorant response to the difficulty/large> > uncertaintly > >> in estimating methane output, which must be mostly due to> > > >> digester-to-digester variability of microbial communities. My impression > >> > > is> > that AD is done with whatever organisms happen to be present, > >> but it > > seemed> > to me that (as some products claim to do with > >> composting) it might be> > possible to inoculate with a particularly > >> enthusiastic microbial > > community,> > or even engineer better > >> methanogens. Apparently this is either not > > possible,> > or is not > >> considered worth thinking about.> >> > Thanks for your patience,> >> > > >> Steve> >> >>From: finstein at envsci.rutgers.edu> >>To: "Duncan Martin" > >> <duncanjmartin at eircom.net>> >>CC: "Steve Verhey" <verheys at hotmail.com>, > >> digestion at listserv.repp.org> >>Subject: Re: [Digestion] Calculating > >> methane production> >>Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 07:32:55 -0400 (EDT)> >>> > >> >>Duncan -> >>> >>As you say (in effect): one man's junk (one microbe's > >> metabolic waste) is> >>another man's treasure (another microbe's > >> substrate). But questioning the> >>complexity of the metabolic web > >> terminating in methane was not what> >>started the thread. Rather, the > >> question asked was - how to estimate> >>methane production.> >>> >>Mel> > >> >>> >>> >> > Come on lads!!> >> >> >> > I might speak only for myself but > >> I think it's an abuse of a forum like> >> > this> >> > for folk to use it > >> as a replacement for ten minutes work in a> >>half-decent> >> > public > >> library or on the internet. I'm more tolerant when the enquiry> >> > > >> comes> >> > from somewhere remote. But I don't think the USA qualifies!> > >> >> >> >> > For info, Steve, yes there is a mass of research and "a > >> particularly> >>good> >> > methanogenic microbial community" is > >> characterized by a great diversity> >>of> >> > species, very many of > >> which are not methanogens. Now, go read!> >> >> >> > Fraternally yours> > >> >> >> >> > Duncan J Martin> >> >> >> > Chair> >> > Republic of Ireland > >> Centre> >> > Chartered Institution of Wastes Management> >> >> >> > > >> ================================> >> > CONTACT DETAILS> >> > Duncan J > >> Martin, PhD, CEng, CSci, MIEI, MCIWM, MIChemE> >> > 24 Townsfield, > >> Cloughjordan, N Tipperary, Ireland> >> > Mobile: +353 86 8377 906> >> > > >> Home: +353 505 42087> >> > Email: duncanjmartin at eircom.net> >> > > >> ================================> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > ----- > >> Original Message -----> >> > From: "Steve Verhey" <verheys at hotmail.com>> > >> >> > To: <finstein at envsci.rutgers.edu>; <digestion at listserv.repp.org>> >> > >> > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 11:13 PM> >> > Subject: Re: [Digestion] > >> Calculating methane production> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> Presumably not > >> all organisms in an anaerobic environment are> >> >> methanogens.> >> >> > >> Is> >> >> there research on what a particularly good methanogenic > >> microbial> >> >> community> >> >> looks like? Maybe it's even possible to > >> make an inoculum that would > >> >> get> >> >> things started off in the > >> right direction?> >> >>> >> >> Steve Verhey, Ph.D> >> >> Biologist at > >> Large> >> >> Ellensburg, WA USA> >> >>> >> > > >> _________________________________________________________________> > > >> Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon.> > > >> http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglineapril07> > >> >> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> >> > Message: 2> > Date: > >> Fri, 4 May 2007 11:14:03 -0400 (EDT)> > From: > >> finstein at envsci.rutgers.edu> > Subject: Re: [Digestion] An apology...and > >> an excuse> > To: "Steve Verhey" <verheys at hotmail.com>> > Cc: > >> finstein at envsci.rutgers.edu, digestion at listserv.repp.org> > Message-ID:> > >> > <50830.72.84.59.43.1178291643.squirrel at webmail.envsci.rutgers.edu>> > > >> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1> >> > Not a problem, Steve -> > >> >> > Your background in molecular biology and biochemistry is actually > >> central> > to the matter. But - and a big but it is - not in the clean > >> context of> > pure culture systems being fed nice uniform substrates. > >> Think of the vast> > range of substrates in garbage, and the vast array > >> of organisms and enzyme> > systems needed to transform that mess to CO2, > >> H2O and CH4! The idea of> > adding some special inoculum or biocatalyst > >> to bring it about - or even to> > accelerate it - becomes absurd. Same > >> for composting, sewage treatment, etc> > etc. Think nature guided by > >> appropriate technology.> >> > Mel> >> >> >> >> There's been talk in the > >> media here about what constitutes a good > >> apology,> >> so I know this > >> one will be of low quality, but I am sorry for asking > >> such> >> a> >> > >> simple question. I do have access to reasonable online sources, but not > >> a> >> good physical library, and I don't actively work in this field -- > >> I'm > >> just> >> interested in it, and in energy issues in general. I'm > >> pretty sure it> >> would> >> take me longer than 10 minutes to answer my > >> question. My background is in> >> molecular biology and biochemistry, not > >> all that useful. This relatively> >> quiet forum seemed a reasonable > >> place to ask the question, which I didn't> >> think was off-topic.> >>> > >> >> That said, the question was my ignorant response to the > >> difficulty/large> >> uncertaintly in estimating methane output, which > >> must be mostly due to> >> digester-to-digester variability of microbial > >> communities. My impression> >> is> >> that AD is done with whatever > >> organisms happen to be present, but it> >> seemed> >> to me that (as some > >> products claim to do with composting) it might be> >> possible to > >> inoculate with a particularly enthusiastic microbial> >> community,> >> > >> or even engineer better methanogens. Apparently this is either not> >> > >> possible,> >> or is not considered worth thinking about.> >>> >> Thanks > >> for your patience,> >>> >> Steve> >>> >>>From: > >> finstein at envsci.rutgers.edu> >>>To: "Duncan Martin" > >> <duncanjmartin at eircom.net>> >>>CC: "Steve Verhey" <verheys at hotmail.com>, > >> digestion at listserv.repp.org> >>>Subject: Re: [Digestion] Calculating > >> methane production> >>>Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 07:32:55 -0400 (EDT)> >>>> > >> >>>Duncan -> >>>> >>>As you say (in effect): one man's junk (one > >> microbe's metabolic waste) is> >>>another man's treasure (another > >> microbe's substrate). But questioning the> >>>complexity of the metabolic > >> web terminating in methane was not what> >>>started the thread. Rather, > >> the question asked was - how to estimate> >>>methane production.> >>>> > >> >>>Mel> >>>> >>>> >>> > Come on lads!!> >>> >> >>> > I might speak only > >> for myself but I think it's an abuse of a forum> >>> like> >>> > this> > >> >>> > for folk to use it as a replacement for ten minutes work in a> > >> >>>half-decent> >>> > public library or on the internet. I'm more > >> tolerant when the enquiry> >>> > comes> >>> > from somewhere remote. But > >> I don't think the USA qualifies!> >>> >> >>> > For info, Steve, yes there > >> is a mass of research and "a particularly> >>>good> >>> > methanogenic > >> microbial community" is characterized by a great> >>> diversity> >>>of> > >> >>> > species, very many of which are not methanogens. Now, go read!> >>> > >> >> >>> > Fraternally yours> >>> >> >>> > Duncan J Martin> >>> >> >>> > > >> Chair> >>> > Republic of Ireland Centre> >>> > Chartered Institution of > >> Wastes Management> >>> >> >>> > ================================> >>> > > >> CONTACT DETAILS> >>> > Duncan J Martin, PhD, CEng, CSci, MIEI, MCIWM, > >> MIChemE> >>> > 24 Townsfield, Cloughjordan, N Tipperary, Ireland> >>> > > >> Mobile: +353 86 8377 906> >>> > Home: +353 505 42087> >>> > Email: > >> duncanjmartin at eircom.net> >>> > ================================> >>> >> > >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> > ----- Original Message -----> >>> > From: > >> "Steve Verhey" <verheys at hotmail.com>> >>> > To: > >> <finstein at envsci.rutgers.edu>; <digestion at listserv.repp.org>> >>> > Sent: > >> Thursday, May 03, 2007 11:13 PM> >>> > Subject: Re: [Digestion] > >> Calculating methane production> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >> Presumably > >> not all organisms in an anaerobic environment are> >>> >> methanogens.> > >> >>> >> Is> >>> >> there research on what a particularly good methanogenic > >> microbial> >>> >> community> >>> >> looks like? Maybe it's even possible > >> to make an inoculum that would> >>> get> >>> >> things started off in the > >> right direction?> >>> >>> >>> >> Steve Verhey, Ph.D> >>> >> Biologist at > >> Large> >>> >> Ellensburg, WA USA> >>> >>> >>> >> > >> _________________________________________________________________> >> > >> Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon.> >> > >> http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglineapril07> > >> >>> >> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> >> > > >> _______________________________________________> > Digestion mailing > >> list> > Digestion at listserv.repp.org> > > >> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_listserv.repp.org> >> > >> > End of Digestion Digest, Vol 11, Issue 5> > > >> ****************************************> >> > > > > > > > >> > ------------------------------> > > >> _______________________________________________> Digestion mailing list> > >> Digestion at listserv.repp.org> > >> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_listserv.repp.org> > > >> End of Digestion Digest, Vol 11, Issue 10> > >> *****************************************> > _________________________________________________________________> > Add some color. Personalize your inbox with your favorite colors.> > www.windowslive-hotmail.com/learnmore/personalize.html?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGLM_HMWL_reten_addcolor_0507> > _______________________________________________> > Digestion mailing list> > Digestion at listserv.repp.org> > http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_listserv.repp.org> > > > > > > > ------------------------------> > _______________________________________________> Digestion mailing list> Digestion at listserv.repp.org> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_listserv.repp.org> > End of Digestion Digest, Vol 11, Issue 11> *****************************************
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