[Gasification] Re: Organic Rankine Cycle Engines

Wed Nov 16 07:16:20 CST 2005

Hi All;
    While I read most of these posts, and have for the last year or so, 
I rarely have a comment that doesn't fall into the "day late, dollar 
Short" category. Therefor I rarely comment and I would probably fall 
into the "Lurker Category" .
 This post however has particular interest as I have been looking at 
both Automobile air compressors to drive PMAs (alternators) for 
electrical production from STEAM and also looking into truck Turbo 
chargers driven by steam and driving (halved and direct 
coupled)highspeed PMAs.  My small fire tube boiler already heats my 
house, so i can already tinker with this. 

    My earlier ideas were to generate med (100#) pressure through a "pop 
off" coupled to either the Automobile Air Compressor or the Modified 
truck turbo, expanding either into a 1000 gal LP tank and drawing off 
the condensed (but still moderately hot) water for hydronic heat 
(already installed in my house) then adding heat through my solar 
collectors as preheaters then batched back into the cooled boiler.

    Although I believe I've got all the parts scavenged together for a 
10KWe gasifier, my confidence level with woodgas and it's cleaning it 
somewhat shy yet. 

    I will continue to read future posts with much interest. Keep up the 
great work all.

Paul (Poncho Villa) Villella

Peter Singfield wrote:

>At 08:57 PM 11/14/2005 EST, Carefreeland at aol.com wrote: 
>  
>
>
>Well -- that is kind of the problem Dan -- $60 US or so!!!
>
>OOps folks -- forgot to add those zeros -- it is $60,000 US!! $10,000 US
>per kwh capacity.
>
>Dan I read your posting with great interest -- including the rant --
>
>But you make one extremely valid point -- it is all about refrigeration
>systems -- and Dayton is more than a master of that trade!!
>
>Now -- a little on ORC "engines" in general.
>
>An ORC system operates with a back pressure factor -- exhaust is into a
>high pressure environment. What is happening is intake is higher -- so
>energy is deducted between the two pressure points.
>
>Under these kind of conditions a straight through -- single pass -- power
>extraction is best -- ergo -- the turbine -- known as a turbo extractor -
>in the ORC trade.
>
>This very closely resembles a car engine turbo charger -- but operates at
>much higher pressures.
>
>They are lucky to get 75% engine efficiency -- the main reason for that
>being the gear down costs -- as a good turbo extractor works at extremely
>high RPMs --
>
>(That gear down is also extremely expensive to build!!)
>
>I have found what I believe is the perfect rotary refrigeration compressor
>to replace a turbo extractor! And reduce costs dramatically!!
>
>Dan and those interested -- go check this refrigeration compressor out:
>
>Daewoo Carrier Air Conditioning compressor
>
>Hell -- to really make things interesting I'll post copy of the message
>sent off list on this very subject to Kevin some time back -- which he
>probably has all forgotten about by now.
>
>All the Urls you need for specifics are there --
>
>I have one of these stripped down to parts on my work bench right now and
>could post to a WWW site very clear and detailed pictures. We are talking a
>2 kw unit here!!
>
>This is a very easy conversion project -- the entire unit would be
>hermetically sealed in side a standard large size O2 welding tank -- with
>appropriate fins applied externally at the bottom for heat transferring --
>just place over any fire pit and make power at high efficiencies and
>effortlessly.
>
>In the past -- I have had wonderful results using fin tubing for really
>efficient heat transfer applications. You end up with gobs of heat transfer
>areas feeding into your handy central tube -- it is like and inside out
>fire tube boiler but with incredible surface area impinging on the hot gas
>side -- and extremely economical to make one up.
>
>The present refrigeration unit is fitted in a heavy metal canister same
>size as that O2 tank.
>
>Peter / still dreaming in color -- but in Belize -- where all this could
>actually get done -- with no "interference"
>
>***************past notes on this "project"***********
>
>
>Hey Kevin;
>
>It is of single sliding abutment design -- I have a patten applied -- for
>such a device -- long expired now -- about 35 years or so back.
>
>Really -- calling it a vane pump is to confuse it.
>
>In this present example -- These are very hardy and well proven mechanisms
>-- years of use in these compressors.
>
>Some of what is nice --
>
>They are of rotary design -- so can be used in "uniflow" mode even with a
>back pressure on the exhaust.
>
>They need no exhaust valve -- but I must design a pop valve intake -- it is
>not steady flow you want -- but a "pop" of working fluid under pressure
>with the pace to expand and thus extract energy.
>
>One of the problems with that is having sufficient expansion ratio -- which
>is also compression ratio -- most rotary devices suffer terribly from that
>ability -- or lack of it.
>
>This one looks like it does at least 20 to 1 -- so hey!!
>
>This design has no seals made of other materials -- it appears to be all
>made of high quality ductile iron castings -- so temps to 400 F will never
>be a problem.
>
>It uses oil/lubricant for sealing -- so temp limit is based on oil
>temperature specs.
>
>I believe good synthetic oils will work to 400 F -- no problems --
>
>The company uses them in special systems at 600 PSI compression pressures!!
>
>(to give you a better idea of real compression ratios -- you need lot to
>reach 600 PSI)
>
>The sliding abutment design is incredibly unique -- and solves some major
>problems with that kind of "engine" -- something I grasp due to prior
>experience in this domain -- 
>
>All in all -- it is the ideal ORC mechanism -- and i seriously doubt anyone
>else knows about this.
>
>My plan is to develop a very rough prototype then publish that to the
>gaslist -- for free.
>
>That because I have so little faith in modern engineering recognizing any
>kind of viable innovative ideas these days -- so why bother spinning wheel
>-- just make them and give them away.
>
>That -- by the way -- is exactly what James Watt did with the original
>steam engine -- and it took 50 years for the engineers of that time to
>catch up to it -- as in saying -- by God -- it actually works!!
>
>See some more specs below -- from a previous message to Don.
>
>I have two of these exact same models in hand Kevin -- for prototyping
>purposes -- cost = zero -- found them in the local dump here.
>
>Kevin -- it most assuredly is the solution to small ORC becoming reality --
>and will -- eventually -- revolutionize completely the small thermal power
>plant field of endeavor.
>
>As always -- just take things off the shelf and put then together in novel
>designs -- 
>
>The big secret to this device working is the incredible high tech machining
>they developed -- so now they turns these out by the zillions -- for what??
>-- probably $25 or less each!! (In Korea!!)
>
>Course -- in the old world one would approach the maker and suggest
>specific changes to ready market this as a complete ORC engine -- but not
>in this world --
>
>What I might do is get my Chinese sales Rep to deal with the koreans just
>to buy the bare bones compressor -- and find a machine shop in China to
>assemble that into a ready to go ORC device.
>
>Kevin -- I plan to use an O2 tank for the entire device -- that is a
>vertical cylinder with the heat transfer coils inside -- emersed in thermal
>oil -- which also lubricates and seals this motor -- motor at the top --
>boiler coiled below it -- shaft to run generator -- or whatever -- out the
>top.
>
>The outside of the O2 cylinder being well finned for heat transfer from a
>small thermal source at the very bottom.
>
>What is really neat -- the sliding abutment is easily adapted to hit the
>pop valve at top dead center --
>
>Peter
>
>******************appended extra****************
>
>Just finished nailing down all the details on that compressor -- it will
>handle up to 400 F and 606 PSI pressures!!
>
>The model I took apart is 3.3 kw motor -- so shit -- should be easy to turn
>it around and produce 2 KW -- net -- power out -- after paying all the
>parasite loads (EG -- feed injection -- condenser fans)
>
>Here is an Url for it:
>
>http://www.carrier.co.kr/en/body02g.asp
>
>The exact model I have is: MODEL EDB260211A
> 
>And it is found at:
>
>http://www.carrier.co.kr/en/body02g_02_detail.asp?idx=560
>
>They show no details about the rotary vane design -- you have to pull one
>apart to see that Beauty!!
>
>it is of incredibly simple design -- with only four moving parts -- one
>being the exhaust valve plate -- which I will not be using -- but I do have
>to adapt a "pop" valve.
>
>I have one such on my bench -- all taken apart -- can make detailed digital
>photos and mount those
>
>Peter
>
>  
>
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "Peter Singfield" <snkm at tzabcan.com>
>>To: "Kevin Chisholm" <kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
>>Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 9:09 PM
>>Subject: Latest micro research project.
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Believe I have found the perfect "motor" for running a small ORC unit.
>>>
>>>From a scrap Daewoo Carrier Air Conditioning compressor --
>>>
>>>Really neat design -- rotary -- will take pictures later detailing the 
>>>design
>>>      
>>>
>>>Sucker took me two days to take down!!
>>>
>>>But man -- real cute!!
>>>
>>>I can see how to easily convert it from compressor to ORC motor -- 
>>>
>>>Certainly -- 2000 watts -- easy!!
>>>      
>>>
>>>And yet -- so damn small!
>>>
>>>and figure it can run at 300 F easy -- and probably up to 450!!
>>>
>>>Pressures of 250 to 350 psi -- should not be a problem!!
>>>
>>>Really clever design!!
>>>
>>>This could revolutionize small power generation!!
>>>
>>>Going to see what I can find on the net about this model compressor --
>>>      
>>>
>>>Peter
>>>
>>>      
>>>
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>
>  
>
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