[Gasification] change of address

Wed Aug 9 12:07:13 CDT 2006

Hello, please change my email address from mowbrayj at sympatico.ca TO 
jan at janmowbray.ca effectively immediately.
Thanks,
Jan Mowbray

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <gasification-request at listserv.repp.org>
To: <gasification at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 1:00 PM
Subject: Gasification Digest, Vol 2, Issue 17

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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Biomass gasification (CAVM at aol.com)
>   2. Re: Gasification to replace natural gas for ethanol
>      production (CAVM at aol.com)
>   3. Re: Biomass heated ethanol plants (Mark Ludlow)
>   4. Re: Biomass heated ethanol plants (CAVM at aol.com)
>   5. Re: Biomass gas ref. Vol2, Issue15 (Jeff Davis)
>   6. Re: Biomass heated ethanol plants (Mark Ludlow)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 22:58:12 EDT
> From: CAVM at aol.com
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Biomass gasification
> To: gasification at listserv.repp.org
> Message-ID: <bc6.2e48d27.320aa944 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
>
> Kevin, et al.
>
> There are 2 very large ethanol plants going up within 10 miles of my 
> sawdust
> pile.  If anyone wants to pitch the idea of a commercial biomass  gasifier 
> to
> them I can hook you up with their front man. And then I can hook you  up 
> with
> a lot of biomass.
>
> Neal
>
> Neal:  Are there any good sized consumers of natural gas near your compost
> pile?  If so, would it be feasible to gasify the compost?
>
> Best  wishes,
>
> Kevin
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 23:02:00 EDT
> From: CAVM at aol.com
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Gasification to replace natural gas for
> ethanol production
> To: gasification at listserv.repp.org
> Message-ID: <4ff.4b867b3.320aaa28 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
>
> Jonathan,  you are correct.  There is a vast surplus of DDG,  dried
> distillers grains, in the areas where the most ethanol plants are  sited. 
> Usually
> these materials are used in feed lot cattle rations or hog  rations. 
> There is not
> nearly enough livestock in the right  places to take advantage of this
> abundance of grain residue.
>
> Some of the ethanol plants are burning the DDG in boilers to produce the
> heat for the ethanol process both to dispose of the surplus and to defeat 
> the
> high price of natural gas.  Does this give anybody any ideas?
>
> Neal
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------------------
>
> What  about using all of the surplus corn mash that is produced in 
> extracting
>
> the starch from Corn?  It would have be be dried first (using  solar?), 
> but
> the energy content of the mash itself would probably equal  that of the
> ethanol produced in the plant.
>
> Jonathan  Pratt
> iENERGY Inc.
> www.woodgas-stove.com
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 20:59:34 -0700
> From: "Mark Ludlow" <mark at ludlow.com>
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Biomass heated ethanol plants
> To: <CAVM at aol.com>, <gasification at listserv.repp.org>
> Message-ID: <148501c6bb68$39f04b80$0500a8c0 at AV2>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Thanks, Neal.
>
> Could you please work backward from the gasifier and compare the net 
> heating
> value (as delivered, with possible fiber water saturation) and include all
> associated costs among which transportation is likely paramount. There's 
> an
> old saying in the Value Recovery industry: "You can't put waste on 
> wheels".
>
> Having been raised in the Midwest and grown to middle age in the Pacific
> Northwest, it's very difficult for me to accept the assertion that the
> Midwest is, "...big timber country". Yes, I am aware of the hardwood
> "forests" that line waterways but in general, its hard to see the forest 
> for
> the trees.
>
> mark
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gasification-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> [mailto:gasification-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of CAVM at aol.com
> Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 4:10 PM
> To: gasification at listserv.repp.org
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Biomass heated ethanol plants
>
>
>
> Mark, the Midwest is big timber country.  I have a site in Indiana  with
> about 700,000 tons of sawdust on it and can get 100,000 more tons per year
> if I want it.
>
> We have conducted several economic evaluations of farm crop residue as
> biomass.  If the farmer can get $30/ton for his biomass crop residue it 
> has
> a chance of working economically. But since green sawdust is about $10/ton
> plus freight there is not much incentive to bale corn stalks.
>
> Neal
> _www.kentuckyenrichment.com_ (http://www.kentuckyenrichment.com)
> _cavm at aol.com_ (mailto:cavm at aol.com)
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> ---------------------------------------------
>
> Where is  the "wood waste" to fuel the gasifiers coming from. The Midwest,
> where the  bulk of ethanol production facilities seem to be located, is 
> not
> exactly  big timber country.
>
> Plenty of cornstalks that may otherwise be chopped,  ensiled and used as
> animal food, but how do they get to the  gasifier?
>
> Best regards,
> Mark
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 00:19:21 EDT
> From: CAVM at aol.com
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Biomass heated ethanol plants
> To: gasification at listserv.repp.org
> Message-ID: <598.3dce7c00.320abc49 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
>
> Boy you sure are asking a lot.  Let me simply the response though by 
> saying
> that kiln dried wood waste of various kinds cost about $18-25/ton plus
> freight.  As a dry commodity the shipping truck is filled with volume long 
> before
> it is filled with weight. It will have about 16-18,000,000 BTU/ton. 
> Roughly
> $1.00 per million BTU.
>
> I don't know what you mean about hardwood forests lining the  waterways. 
> You
> may be thinking of Nebraska or South Dakota.   Illinois, Indiana, 
> Kentucky,
> Tennessee are reputed to have more forested land  now than when Daniel 
> Boone
> first set foot here.
>
> As for transportation costs, that would be about $50 per trucking hour for 
> a
> short haul such as from my site to the ethanol plant 10 miles away. 
> Figure
> one round trip per hour maybe.  $50 per 20 tons of fuel, or  320,000,000 
> BTU,
> for freight.
>
> For comparison sake, corn and corn stover have about 18-22,000,000 BTU per
> ton.  They would be dried on the vine, so to speak, and raked, baled and
> hauled from the field.  Keep in mind the required $30/ton FOB the field 
> for  the
> farmer to engage in this exercise.  If these fields were likewise 10 
> miles from
> an ethanol plant, for agruement's sake, you would have $30/18,000,000  BTU 
> =
> $1.66/mm BTU.
>
> Compare either of these to natural gas or propane.  Of course biomass
> requires a one time combustion or gasification capital cost for equipment. 
> Like I
> said earlier, does this give anybody any ideas?
>
> Neal
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------------------------
>
> Thanks,  Neal.
>
> Could you please work backward from the gasifier and compare the  net 
> heating
> value (as delivered, with possible fiber water saturation) and  include 
> all
> associated costs among which transportation is likely  paramount. There's 
> an
> old saying in the Value Recovery industry: "You can't  put waste on 
> wheels".
>
> Having been raised in the Midwest and grown to  middle age in the Pacific
> Northwest, it's very difficult for me to accept  the assertion that the
> Midwest is, "...big timber country". Yes, I am aware  of the hardwood
> "forests" that line waterways but in general, its hard to  see the forest 
> for
> the trees.
>
> mark
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 01:31:47 -0400
> From: Jeff Davis <jeff0124 at velocity.net>
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Biomass gas ref. Vol2, Issue15
> To: gasification at listserv.repp.org
> Message-ID: <200608090131.47382.jeff0124 at velocity.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;  charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Dear Col and List,
>
> On Tuesday 08 August 2006 05:51 pm, Col wrote:
>>The bugs were
>> top secret for a few years and access to the site was very restricted. 
>> The
>> bugs were very good at their job and generated a lot of methane but are
>> also temperature sensitive.
>
>
> Bugs might be small but they have vary sharp teeth and you do not have to
> sharpen them. At least that is what I have found.
>
> I use native bugs to break down my  switchgrass. Next it goes into the 
> cement
> mixer (paddles removed) with some rocks. In short time I can see
> agglomerations starting to form. Here I remove the rocks and continue to
> rotate the mixer. In short order I have some nice fireballs.
>
> Someday I hope to combine the composting of the switchgrass with algae
> production.
>
>
> Balls to the wall,
>
>
> Jeff
>
>
> -- 
> Jeff Davis
> Somewhere 20 miles south of Lake Erie, USA
> http://www.velocity.net/~jeff0124
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 22:31:47 -0700
> From: "Mark Ludlow" <mark at ludlow.com>
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Biomass heated ethanol plants
> To: <CAVM at aol.com>, <gasification at listserv.repp.org>
> Message-ID: <149001c6bb75$1b744410$0500a8c0 at AV2>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Thanks, Neal.
>
> Your information is very useful (although the US Census Bureau has never
> considered Kentucky and Tennessee to be part of the Midwest).
>
> If your numbers are accurate it's a good deal for hog fuel. The
> transportation costs must represent the best case for a truck and trailer 
> as
> well as for distance traveled. Plus, your raw materials must be kiln-dried
> planer shavings.
>
> So mess with the costs a bit and you can hit $0.25/therm pretty easy. This
> is still much cheaper than most Natural Gas but NG burners are very cheap,
> compared to gasifiers and there's very little in the way of supporting
> infrastructure needed. Plus the capital demand for a gasifier system is
> significant and if an ethanol plant only need 1MW thermal, payback could
> take a long time.
>
> One wonders why, if ethanol is being touted as a competitive fuel, it is 
> not
> used to fuel the process(?)
>
> mark
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gasification-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> [mailto:gasification-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of CAVM at aol.com
> Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 9:19 PM
> To: gasification at listserv.repp.org
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Biomass heated ethanol plants
>
>
>
> Boy you sure are asking a lot.  Let me simply the response though by 
> saying
> that kiln dried wood waste of various kinds cost about $18-25/ton plus
> freight.  As a dry commodity the shipping truck is filled with volume long
> before
> it is filled with weight. It will have about 16-18,000,000 BTU/ton.
> Roughly
> $1.00 per million BTU.
>
> I don't know what you mean about hardwood forests lining the  waterways.
> You
> may be thinking of Nebraska or South Dakota.   Illinois, Indiana, 
> Kentucky,
> Tennessee are reputed to have more forested land  now than when Daniel 
> Boone
> first set foot here.
>
> As for transportation costs, that would be about $50 per trucking hour for
> a
> short haul such as from my site to the ethanol plant 10 miles away. 
> Figure
>
> one round trip per hour maybe.  $50 per 20 tons of fuel, or  320,000,000
> BTU, for freight.
>
> For comparison sake, corn and corn stover have about 18-22,000,000 BTU per
> ton.  They would be dried on the vine, so to speak, and raked, baled and
> hauled from the field.  Keep in mind the required $30/ton FOB the field 
> for
> the farmer to engage in this exercise.  If these fields were likewise 10
> miles from an ethanol plant, for agruement's sake, you would have
> $30/18,000,000  BTU = $1.66/mm BTU.
>
> Compare either of these to natural gas or propane.  Of course biomass
> requires a one time combustion or gasification capital cost for equipment.
> Like I
> said earlier, does this give anybody any ideas?
>
> Neal
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> -------------------------------
>
> Thanks,  Neal.
>
> Could you please work backward from the gasifier and compare the  net
> heating value (as delivered, with possible fiber water saturation) and
> include all associated costs among which transportation is likely
> paramount. There's an old saying in the Value Recovery industry: "You 
> can't
> put waste on wheels".
>
> Having been raised in the Midwest and grown to  middle age in the Pacific
> Northwest, it's very difficult for me to accept  the assertion that the
> Midwest is, "...big timber country". Yes, I am aware  of the hardwood
> "forests" that line waterways but in general, its hard to  see the forest
> for the trees.
>
> mark
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gasification mailing list
> Gasification at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_listserv.repp.org
> http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/gasification
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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>
> End of Gasification Digest, Vol 2, Issue 17
> ******************************************* 