[Gasification] Methanol stove fuel. was Re: Methanol toxicity?

Paul S. Anderson psanders at ilstu.edu
Wed Jul 5 08:47:22 CDT 2006 

Dear All,

I am bringing to the Stoves Listserv an on-going discussion about the toxicity
of methanol because ethyl alcohol and methyl alcohol are about equally good is
small alcohol stoves.  (I do not know if the Gasification Listserve will need
to respond to this "stoves" message, but I am grateful for the earlier
discussion.)

New readers of this thread, please be sure to see the longer message by 
Tom Reed
that is below his short one.  I mainly reply to that message, except 
that while
Tom is thinking of vehicle fuel, I am thinking of stove fuel.

Why this topic:  I have developed a slightly new style of burner of alcohol
fuels.  It is something of a cross between the Dometic and Trangia and
beverage-can and tray-warmer alcohol burners, and very inexpensive.  I will
describe it in later messages.  Also, I know that methanol is much less
expensive to produce IF you have cheap natural gas, and that is the situation
in Bolivia where I am doing some stove work.

Tom points out that methanol toxicity is real, but is exaggerated.

Tom, the high ETHANOL fetalities are from drinking alcohol and drunk-driver
accidents, right?  Any specific figures on fetalities from dring DENATURED
ethanol, meaning alcohol that was not intended for human consumption?

Rogerio, are Brazilians having any occurances of people drinking the alcohol
widely distributed at the vehicle fuel stations (called "gas stations" 
in USA)?
In Portuguese, the word for alcohol is "alcol".  Alcol is what you get 
when you
take the "ho-ho-ho" out of alcohol.  :-))

In Bolivia, almost all alcohol available in the markets is the potable 
drinking
kind, and has a corresponding high cost.  So I am very concerned about
introducing a low-cost NON-potable stove fuel and calling it anything that has
the word alcohol in it.

Therefore, I am seeking a new single-word term that ONLY refers to
the NON-drinkable alcohol fuels of ethanol and methanol. I have one 
such term to
suggest:

emecol      "e" is for ethanol,     "me" is for methanol (pronounced as 
"me" of
methanol, not as in "you and me"),   and "col" denotes it as the type of
chemical liquids that all end in "ol".    And the "col" matches well with the
Brazilian term "alcol".   I think the sound of "emenol" is not as good, but
could also be a candidate word.

Therefore, people who do not have much education are more likely to NOT 
confuse
their drinking alcohol with their emecol fuel.

Popular usage will win out in the long run, but I will probably 
introduce my new
liquid-burning stove as an emecol stove.  That is NOT the stove name, 
but is the
name of the fuel.  There is no ownership of words like alcohol and ethanol and
emecol and methanol and alcol.  My stove will be introduced with its own
distinctive name, but the fuel will be any of the just mentioned liquid fuels.

If someone who is on the other listserves that are fuel oriented cares to take
the discussion of the name there, please keep me informed.  But I do 
not expect
them to nessarily appreciate the issues of developing countries and stoves, as
opposed to the affluent society and vehicle fuel issues that dominate in our
USA discussions.

Paul

-- 
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Geography professor - Emeritus
Telephone:  USA-309-452-7072 (residence and office)
Internet site:  www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
For my gasifier stoves info, go to:
http://bioenergylists.org/contributors#Paul_Anderson


Quoting Thomas Reed <tombreed at comcast.net>:

> Dear Thomas:
>
> Right on!
>
> Methanol does not corrode aluminum, but will do a job on magnesium.  So
> in testifying in Congress against methanol (and me) in 1975, Chevron
> showed the magnesium tank of a chain saw to show that methanol would not
> be a practical fuel.
>
> I hope we're not too late to start serious alternate fuels.
>
> TOM REED     BEF
>
> Thomas Pirotte wrote:
>> I have never seen or heard of any instance of CH3OH absorption 
>> through the skin, from a "splash" exposure, causing any significant 
>> toxicity.  I used methanol plenty of times back on Organic Chemistry 
>> lab...
>>
>> I read a blurb containing the factoid "methanol corrodes aluminum 
>> fittings."  Any truth?
>>
>> T. Pirotte, M.D.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: bioconversion-bounces at listserv.repp.org
>> [mailto:bioconversion-bounces at listserv.repp.org]On Behalf Of Thomas Reed
>> Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 08:14
>> To: Dick Glick
>> Cc: bioconversion at listserv.repp.org; Gasification
>> Subject: [Bioconversion] Methanol toxicity
>>
>>
>> Dear Glick and All:
>>
>> There is a lot of misinformation about methanol toxicity around, partly
>> because the oil companies were dedicated to making sure it didn't
>> compete with petroleum starting with our work in 1973.  (See details at
>> http://www.woodgas.com/methanol.htm).
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> According to my Merck handbook the usual fatal dose for *methanol *is
>> 100-250 ml, but less than 30 ml has been reported.  On *ethyl alcohol*
>> they report "Nausea, vomiting, flushing, mental excitement or
>> depression, drowsiness, impaired perception, incoordination, stupor,
>> coma, death may occur."  I believe there are over 100,000 deaths
>> attributed to ethanol in the US each year, and for methanol less than 10
>> worldwide, even though methanol production exceeds ethanol (?).
>> (Methanol is also an intermediate for plastics, etc.)
>>
>> Shortly after I began my "methanol as an additive and the eventual
>> replacement for gasoline" campaign in 1973 I got good advice on the
>> toxicology from a Canadian physician.
>>
>> Most methyl alcohol toxic events were caused by confusing it with ethyl
>> alcohol, so we decided that "methanol" was a better name than "methyl
>> alcohol" or "wood alcohol".  Painters were famous for drinking a wide
>> variety of alcohols and were paraticularly susceptible around the turn
>> of the century.  Sailors likewise.
>>
>> Many liquors can contain methanol and I remember that Schlivovitz had 4%.
>>
>> The mechanism of methanol poisoning is that the ethanol dehydrogenaze in
>> your stomach thinks it is ethanol and decomposes it to formic acid,
>> definitely stronger than acetic acid and can cause blindness and death.
>> A second mechanism is that methanol is not as intoxicating as ethanol,
>> and so a dedicated drunk will keep on drinking it, waiting for bliss,
>> rather than oblivion.  The recommended antidote for accidentally
>> drinking methanol is a dose of whiskey.  This gives the dehydrogenaze
>> the proper food to work on and the methanol passes through with less harm.
>>
>> The toxicity of methanol is a blessing in disguise.  Ethanol is easily
>> diverted into the home brew beverage category.  Methanol won't be.
>> Methanol is very biodegradable in the environment.  It is much less
>> toxic than gasoline.
>>
>> So, let's get on with methanol as the simplest replacement for gasoline
>> and don't even think about it as a beverage.
>>
>> Your realistic fuel chemist,
>>
>> TOM REED   The Biomass Energy Foundation
>>
>>
>> Dick Glick wrote:
>>
>>> Hello All --
>>> I don't know how I lived through 60 years in the chemistry lab -- all
>>> those horrible solvents like methanol, benzene, toluene, etc -- but
>>> times have changed and now they're killers -- ???
>>>
>>> Best, Dick
>>> www.CorpFutRes.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harmon Seaver" <hseaver at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Gasification" <GASIFICATION at listserv.repp.org>;
>>> <bioconversion at listserv.repp.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 9:23 AM
>>> Subject: Re: County wide methanol project -- was: Re: [Gasification]
>>> Re:Gasification Digest, Vol 23, Issue 28
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Just do a google on methanol toxicity. For instance:
>>>>
>>>> "Lethal doses are thought to range from 30-240 mL; the minimum lethal
>>>> dose is believed to be 1 g/kg body weight."
>>>>
>>>> http://www.emedicine.com/NEURO/topic217.htm
>>>>
>>>>   Methanol is very readily absorbed thru the skin, sub-lethal doses
>>>> cause damage to the nervous system and eyes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 6/26/06, Arnt Karlsen <arnt at c2i.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:48:22 -0500, Harmon wrote in message
>>>>> <22acb24d0606261748i7c237c34v507d837d9d18cd5a at mail.gmail.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>    This conversation really belongs on the bioconversion list rather
>>>>>> than gasification.
>>>>>>
>>>>> ..aye.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> But have you given any thought to just how toxic methanol is?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Spill it
>>>>>
>>>>>> on your hand while refueling and you probably won't survive the
>>>>>> experience.
>>>>>>
>>>>> ..maybe I'm on long term bonus time, but some aero modellers have
>>>>> messed
>>>>> around with methanol and castor oil for decades.  We do however worry
>>>>> about epoxy glues and paints, there is an individual and appearantly
>>>>> accumulating tolerance limit, some oldtimers can mess around for
>>>>> decades
>>>>> with no visible effects while a few unfortunate souls lose their health
>>>>> building their first model.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o)
>>>>> ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
>>>>>   Scenarios always come in sets of three:
>>>>>   best case, worst case, and just in case.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Gasification mailing list
>>>>> Gasification at listserv.repp.org
>>>>> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification
>>>>> http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/gasification
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Harmon Seaver
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Gasification mailing list
>>>> Gasification at listserv.repp.org
>>>> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification
>>>> http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/gasification
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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