[Gasification] Ecoethanol "(OFF TOPIC)" <------ see???
Ken Basterfield
ken at basterfield.com
Tue Jul 25 10:27:54 CDT 2006
Manuel,
Don't get too excitable and disappear, Harmon likes to police the group, but
in my opinion a bit too narrowly. This group is interesting and well
informed and when it ventures wider, even more so.
There is a wide diversity of knowledge and experience here so stay and add
to it.
Sincerely
ken
I've stopped 46,960 spam and fraud messages. You can too!
Free trial of spam and fraud protection at
http://www.cloudmark.com/sig/?rc=f4n4hl
-----Original Message-----
From: gasification-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:gasification-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of Manuel
Escamilla
Sent: 24 July 2006 15:16
To: gasification at listserv.repp.org
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Ecoethanol "(OFF TOPIC)" <------ see???
Dear Mr Kermit Schlansker, Mr Harmon Seaver and honorable members of the
forum:
When I first took a look at the list after browsing for hours to find a good
group of experts on multidisciplinary tasks I thought this place was exactly
what I was looking for. For me this forum is a place not only to learn and
contribute to the gasification technology but also it is an island where a
group of experts come together to share experiences and also to meet new
colleagues. Now, as it happened to me once and twice and more, let me give
you all a piece of advise: there is a subject area that has a reason which
is leting to know in advance what the topic of the message is, so if it says
ethanol and you don't want to read about it, then just don't.
The problem is that such attitude drives off good members from the list
which maybe in a future may contribute to the topic of gasification. Let me
remind you that the secret of a well developed project is whithin the
multidisciplinary effort and not the effort of one or more experts on one
area.
Given this I remind you that there is an OFF TOPIC header that can be
written down right before the subject to let you all know if it is part or
not of the gasification thread. Now, I surely know that such subject as
ethanol is not a gasification topic and this is the main topic of the forum
but why being intolerant at something that is contributing as well, maybe
not for you, but for instance me and many other members of this forum.
Who knows, maybe one day one guy from the ethanol industry or sugar industry
or toilet paper industry will come up with the key to make the gasification
a REAL comercial opportunity. Intolerance is the devil among science
groups... should we keep bothering another members with irrelevant topics
such at this?... please, lets give an example of tolerance and PLEASE...
write down OFF TOPIC, ok?... oh... and if for any reason you forget and you
see ethanol in the subject and you don't care about it...just don't read
it!!!
Now, about ethanol: (finaly)
We among the sugar industry don't think like those guys that say ethanol is
the key to the future. There are many reasons, so let me just write down a
couple: first of all there is no way in hell that the planet earth has
enough land to harvest crops that eventually may give a product to make
ethanol. NO WAY. So ethanol, at least in latin america, is seen as a way to
be MORE ENERGETICALLY INDEPENDENT, not COMPLETELY independent. Here in
Guatemala our ethanol branch is growing tremendously fast. Right now there
is a project in one sugar mill consisting in a new ethanol processing plant
that will use final molasses as base material. I have no idea of what is
going on with the corn to ethanol process but I presume there must be a lot
of new ideas in such area that maybe we could use in the sugar industry. For
instance, here we have one problem: we are lacking of more land to plant
sugar cane so what are we doing?... buying whichever sugar mill in the
central american region and, as fresh news for you all, in Brazil and other
south american countries.
Ethanol is now what propane (hope it is well written) gas was a few years
ago. It started as a good source for powering up cars but it also
contributed to a lot of problems to the engine. Maybe the problem is the
thermic cycle or the technology used or whatever... who knows... weird ideas
come up once in a while and solve problems.
For me the key NOW is to generate diversified energy oportunities. Ethanol
from soy, sugarcane, corn... whatever. Energy from garbage, from the sun,
winds and oceans. The power generation from the oceans waves is a pretty
good surce i believe and should be looked into it more carefuly.
So no my dear colleagues, ethanol is NOT the key to the world's energy
problem... it is the key for the ethanol producing countries to be more
independent... It is just ANOTHER way to asure energy independency. Maybe
the problem will be solved if we come up with a good water to fuel converter
for our cars... maybe. For now lets just keep wondering and working and
learning from other industries... maybe the key for gasification is in the
most weird place... like almost any solution is.
I leave you now to your gasification stuff... I am learning a lot about it
and also enjoying those little fights that once in a while come up!! =)
Take care my fellow colleagues and keep eating sugar... say no to diabetis
and honey!!! hahahahaha ;)
Best Regards
Manuel A. Escamilla
>From: gasification-request at listserv.repp.org
>Reply-To: gasification at listserv.repp.org
>To: gasification at listserv.repp.org
>Subject: Gasification Digest, Vol 1, Issue 24
>Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 12:00:02 -0500
>
>Send Gasification mailing list submissions to
> gasification at listserv.repp.org
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>
>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_listserv.repp.or
>g
>
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> gasification-request at listserv.repp.org
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at
> gasification-owner at listserv.repp.org
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of Gasification digest..."
>
>
>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Ecoethanol (Kermit Schlansker)
> 2. Re: Ecoethanol (Harmon Seaver)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 09:22:19 -0500
>From: "Kermit Schlansker" <kssustain at provide.net>
>Subject: [Gasification] Ecoethanol
>To: "Gasification" <gasification at listserv.repp.org>
>Message-ID: <002701c6ae63$83018cb0$bc4656d8 at CPQ28298264587>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Ecoethanol
>
> The following defense of corn to ethanol is by no means meant
>to
>indicate that it is the solution for all of our problems. It also doesn't
>indicate that there couldn't be a better process. However our first task is
>to make farming independent of oil. We can't possibly power all of the big
>cars. In addition to all of the advantages cited here, making ethanol can
>be done without high pressures and temperatures. It can easily be done
>within a building or in an insulated outbuilding. It is a well-known
>primitive process.
> It is possible to show the power of the Ecomindium with the
>following example. The making of ethanol from corn is a reviled process
>because the energy efficiency is so low. It has been said that it takes
>about 4 lbs of coal to process one gallon of ethanol. This would be about
>40,000 btus/gallon. To get another angle on input energy, joedoves says
>that it takes 12000 kj/kg to process ethanol. This is also about 40,000
>btus/gallon. This energy is probably used in grinding, steaming, and
>distilling the corn.
> According to "Ethanol 101", one bushel of corn makes 17.6 lbs of
>ethanol, weighs 56 lbs, gives 6000 btus of heat, and 17 lbs of distiller's
>grain. The 6000 btus/bushel seems to be incorrect. Also the 17.6 lbs of
>ethanol does not seem to jibe with the 2.5 gallons per bushel that is
>frequently given.
> At 56 lbs /bushel and 8000 btus/lb the overall energy value of
>the corn bushel is 448000 btus. If the Stover is 2 tons/acre, at 120
>bushels/acre and 6000 btus/lb of Stover the energy value per bushel is
>200000 btus. This works out to a total of 77.8 million btus/acre.
> Ethanol has a high heat value of 12770 btus/lb. This means that
>the heat value of the ethanol/bushel is 224752 btus. At 72000 btus/gallon
>we are getting 3.12 gallons/bushel. This seems high. If we subtract the 17
>lbs leftover solids from distillation from the weight per bushel we get 39
>lbs/bushel. At 8000 btus/lb the remaining heat value is 312000 btus. If we
>subtract the heat of the ethanol from this we get 87248 btus. This is
>probably the heat lost during fermentation and is 29000 btus/gallon.
> To sum it up we are getting 224752 btus of ethanol energy plus
>87248 btus waste heat from a bushel of corn. We are putting 120000 btus
>into it for processing. This means a total of 207248 btus/bushel of waste
>heat that can be used for space heating in winter. We can add to this the
>200000 btus/bushel of Stover energy. This can be gasified and used for
>cogeneration to produce about 15 kwhrs of electricity and about 160000 btus
>of waste heat. The total value of waste heat is then 367248 btus/bushel,
>which is greater than the heat of the alcohol. Making 1000 gallons of
>ethanol would contribute about 122 million btus to space heating. This is
>what I call comanufacturing and the Ecomindium would excel at it. If we add
>waste heat from gasification, cogeneration, and biodigestion, the heating
>and hot water heating bill for the Ecomindium is eliminated.
> It is the 17 lbs of good processed food that makes corn to
>ethanol into a superior process. If this food is fed to people, chickens,
>rabbits, or fish it becomes really valuable and the cost of processing
>replacement food is eliminated. Ethanol from cellulose in large facilities
>is not as useful a process. In an Ecomindium, corn would produce food,
>tractor fuel, and space heating. In the Ecomindium culture it would also
>be possible to generate the 40000 btus needed to process the corn from
>solar mirror energy.
> The plowing energy might come from the ethanol but could come
>from biodiesel or a cellulose fired, tractor mounted gasifier system.
>Nitrogen is made by crop rotation with clover, soybeans, other leguminous
>plants, manure, or biodigester residues. Ashes are used to return minerals
>to the soil. Alfalfa has deep roots that probably would put carbon into the
>soil. In a biodigester the alfalfa can also be used to make gaseous energy,
>space heating, and fertilizer. The whole process should work for a long
>time.
>
>
> Kermit Schlansker
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 09:45:04 -0500
>From: "Harmon Seaver" <hseaver at gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [Gasification] Ecoethanol
>To: "Kermit Schlansker" <kssustain at provide.net>
>Cc: Gasification <gasification at listserv.repp.org>
>Message-ID:
> <22acb24d0607230745j5830c679g48b148a787390f35 at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> Pray tell -- what does this have to do with gasification? I really
>don't get it -- why do people keep cluttering up the gasification list
>with totally irrelevant topics? Do you have any idea how many people
>interested in gasfication have been driven off this list by the signal
>to noise ratio? Repp has two other lists where this would have been
>more than welcome -- bioconversion and bioenergy, please use them.
>
>On 7/23/06, Kermit Schlansker <kssustain at provide.net> wrote:
> > Ecoethanol
> >
> > The following defense of corn to ethanol is by no means
> > meant to
>indicate that it is the solution for all of our problems. It also
>doesn't
>indicate that there couldn't be a better process. However our first task is
>to make farming independent of oil. We can't possibly power all of the big
>cars. In addition to all of the advantages cited here, making ethanol can
>be done without high pressures and temperatures. It can easily be done
>within a building or in an insulated outbuilding. It is a well-known
>primitive process.
> > It is possible to show the power of the Ecomindium with
> > the
>following example. The making of ethanol from corn is a reviled process
>because the energy efficiency is so low. It has been said that it takes
>about 4 lbs of coal to process one gallon of ethanol. This would be about
>40,000 btus/gallon. To get another angle on input energy, joedoves says
>that it takes 12000 kj/kg to process ethanol. This is also about 40,000
>btus/gallon. This energy is probably used in grinding, steaming, and
>distilling the corn.
> > According to "Ethanol 101", one bushel of corn makes 17.6
> > lbs of
>ethanol, weighs 56 lbs, gives 6000 btus of heat, and 17 lbs of
>distiller's
>grain. The 6000 btus/bushel seems to be incorrect. Also the 17.6 lbs of
>ethanol does not seem to jibe with the 2.5 gallons per bushel that is
>frequently given.
> > At 56 lbs /bushel and 8000 btus/lb the overall energy
> > value of
>the corn bushel is 448000 btus. If the Stover is 2 tons/acre, at 120
>bushels/acre and 6000 btus/lb of Stover the energy value per bushel is
>200000 btus. This works out to a total of 77.8 million btus/acre.
> > Ethanol has a high heat value of 12770 btus/lb. This
> > means
>that the heat value of the ethanol/bushel is 224752 btus. At 72000
>btus/gallon we are getting 3.12 gallons/bushel. This seems high. If we
>subtract the 17 lbs leftover solids from distillation from the weight per
>bushel we get 39 lbs/bushel. At 8000 btus/lb the remaining heat value is
>312000 btus. If we subtract the heat of the ethanol from this we get 87248
>btus. This is probably the heat lost during fermentation and is 29000
>btus/gallon.
> > To sum it up we are getting 224752 btus of ethanol energy
>plus 87248 btus waste heat from a bushel of corn. We are putting 120000
>btus into it for processing. This means a total of 207248 btus/bushel of
>waste heat that can be used for space heating in winter. We can add to this
>the 200000 btus/bushel of Stover energy. This can be gasified and used for
>cogeneration to produce about 15 kwhrs of electricity and about 160000 btus
>of waste heat. The total value of waste heat is then 367248 btus/bushel,
>which is greater than the heat of the alcohol. Making 1000 gallons of
>ethanol would contribute about 122 million btus to space heating. This is
>what I call comanufacturing and the Ecomindium would excel at it. If we add
>waste heat from gasification, cogeneration, and biodigestion, the heating
>and hot water heating bill for the Ecomindium is eliminated.
> > It is the 17 lbs of good processed food that makes corn
> > to
>ethanol into a superior process. If this food is fed to people,
>chickens,
>rabbits, or fish it becomes really valuable and the cost of processing
>replacement food is eliminated. Ethanol from cellulose in large facilities
>is not as useful a process. In an Ecomindium, corn would produce food,
>tractor fuel, and space heating. In the Ecomindium culture it would also
>be possible to generate the 40000 btus needed to process the corn from
>solar mirror energy.
> > The plowing energy might come from the ethanol but could
> > come
>from biodiesel or a cellulose fired, tractor mounted gasifier system.
>Nitrogen is made by crop rotation with clover, soybeans, other leguminous
>plants, manure, or biodigester residues. Ashes are used to return minerals
>to the soil. Alfalfa has deep roots that probably would put carbon into the
>soil. In a biodigester the alfalfa can also be used to make gaseous energy,
>space heating, and fertilizer. The whole process should work for a long
>time.
> >
> >
> Kermit Schlansker
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Gasification mailing list
> > Gasification at listserv.repp.org
> > http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_listserv.repp
> > .org
> > http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/gasification
> >
>
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Gasification mailing list
>Gasification at listserv.repp.org
>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_listserv.repp.or
>g
>
>End of Gasification Digest, Vol 1, Issue 24
>*******************************************
_________________________________________________________________
Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.com/
_______________________________________________
Gasification mailing list
Gasification at listserv.repp.org
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_listserv.repp.org
http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/gasification
______________________________________________
This email has been scanned by Netintelligence
http://www.netintelligence.com/email
More information about the Gasification
mailing list