[Gasification] RE: Durability of Stainless Steel
Mark & Elena Gallmeier
mgallmeir at comcast.net
Mon Jun 5 12:07:41 CDT 2006
Dear Dr. Reed & All,
>>"tincanium" last forever<<
Absolutely.
I have a 5 gallon metal paint bucket foundry with extremely thin sheet metal
sides. This is holding up great. The interior is insulated with perlite.
It has an inner bore or "fire chamber" built up using a rolled tube of 1/4"
hardware cloth and furnace cement, all applied to a tube form made with
aluminum flashing . Interior temperatures reach up to 800C but the
exterior metal holds up fine. My Maxwell House coffee can furnace (also
perlite lined) for melting tin-based Babbitt bearing alloys is also holding
up fine. The paint hasn't even discolored.
Much later this summer I'm going to explore slip-casting using fireclays.
This old technology seems to have potential for radical cost reductions
compared to all-steel fabrication of gasifier components like fire tubes and
high temperature tuyere nozzles. Even low duty fireclay is good up to
1500C.
The materials (ground fireclay and plaster of paris for making slip molds)
are sure cheaper than steel. So is the required shop equipment, mainly
plastic 5 gallon buckets for mixing slip and 1/2 h.p motors and mounts for
slip mixing machines. Very low cost compared to big metal slip rolls,
sheet metal brakes, tube benders, plasma cutters, heavy welders... Then
use perlite for refractory and finish up with thin gauge steel flashing
(more "tincanium") or recycled steel water heater tanks for exterior shells.
Best Wishes,
Mark
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 06:32:58 -0600
> From: Thomas Reed <tombreed at comcast.net>
> Subject: [Gasification] Re: [Stoves] RE: Durability of Stainless Steel
> To: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispin at newdawn.sz>
> Cc: GASIFICATION <GASIFICATION at listserv.repp.org>, Stoves
> <stoves at listserv.repp.org>
> Message-ID: <4484247A.3080705 at comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Dear Crispin, Dean and All:
>
> Good question and answers below.
>
> We are continually amazed that "tincanium" last forever in applications
> where chemical reactions can reach 900C. I believe this is explained by
> Das's rule:
>
> A metal container will reach a temperature ~ halfway between the outside
> and the inside.
>
> It is also explained by the fact that radiant heat loss from the outside
> surface is proportional to (surface temperature )^4.
>
> So use stainless when you must, but be glad that is is often not
> necessary. Harder to cut, weld, braze and buy.
>
> TOM REED BEF
----- Original Message -----
From: <gasification-request at listserv.repp.org>
To: <gasification at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 12:00 PM
Subject: Gasification Digest, Vol 23, Issue 6
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Biofilter (CAVM at aol.com)
> 2. Yearly woodgas jamboree!! (Paul S. Anderson)
> 3. Re MDF Gasification (Doug Williams)
> 4. Re: another aproach to producing a clean gas (gasman)
> 5. Re: [Stoves] RE: Durability of Stainless Steel (Thomas Reed)
> 6. Re: V-hearth or choke plate? (Thomas Reed)
> 7. Re: Re MDF Gasification (Paul S. Anderson)
> 8. Gasifying coconuts and eating them too. (andy schofield)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 12:30:49 EDT
> From: CAVM at aol.com
> Subject: [Gasification] Re: Biofilter
> To: gasification at listserv.repp.org
> Message-ID: <4b6.10dca1f.31b464b9 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Cleaning gas with a biofilter seems like a capital idea. We use
> biofilters
> for a wide variety of odor and pollutant cleaning on very large scale
> projects and very small ones.
>
> As you say, the result can be recomposted.
>
> Neal Van Milligen
> _www.kentuckyenrichment.com_ (http://www.kentuckyenrichment.com)
> _www.wildlifeprotein.com_ (http://www.wildlifeprotein.com)
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 21:55:43 -0500
> From: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> Subject: [Gasification] Yearly woodgas jamboree!!
> To: gasman <gasman at welho.com>
> Cc: GASIFICATION at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG, jim mason
> <jimmason at whatiamupto.com>
> Message-ID: <20060604215543.wdj9ocvrb40scsgc at webmail2.ilstu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed"
>
> Max,
>
> Please send a message about this jamboree event.
>
> Paul
>
> Quoting gasman <gasman at welho.com>:
>> On my way today 4.6.2006 to the yearly woodgas jamboree...
>>
>> Max
>
> --
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Geography professor - Emeritus
> Telephone: USA-309-452-7072 (residence and office)
> Internet site: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
> For my gasifier stoves info, go to (below) and click on my name:
> http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/contributions.html
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using Illinois State University Webmail.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 20:09:27 +1200
> From: "Doug Williams" <Doug.Williams at orcon.net.nz>
> Subject: [Gasification] Re MDF Gasification
> To: <GASIFICATION at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> Message-ID: <004001c68877$5ea51240$0301a8c0 at pc>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi Gasification Colleagues,
>
> For those of you still interested in being informed of commercial
> gasification development, I have posted information and photos of MDF
> waste
> gasification being done at our licensee, Innovation Technologies (Ireland)
> Ltd near Belfast. This is also the first time that the all new Atlantic
> Class gasifier (70-80 kWe) has been shown to the wider public. You can see
> this on the Fluidyne Archive www.fluidynenz.250x.com under MDF
> Gasification.
>
> Doug Williams,
> Fluidyne Gasification.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:45:02 +0300
> From: "gasman" <gasman at welho.com>
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] another aproach to producing a clean gas
> To: "Thomas Reed" <tombreed at comcast.net>
> Cc: GASIFICATION at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
> Message-ID: <000901c6888d$1f2b1040$a400a8c0 at MONOXIDE>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format="flowed"; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type="original"
>
>
>
>
>
> Greetings, Tom and All!
>
>
>
>
>
> The annual Woodgas Jamboree at the Mobilia Road and Vehicle Museum
>
> this year, did not bring many contenders, probably because there are
> many more exhibition occasions around the country during the summer.
>
>
>
> The short list comprises:
>
>
>
> - A Bedford truck with the gasifier, cyclone, cooler and filter
>
> arranged at the tail-end of the loading-plane, and reheating
>
> at the exhaust manifold, followed by a triple paper-filter
>
> (parallel in one container) behind the 6-cylinder engine under
>
> the cabin tail end, before going to the mixer.
>
> Using birch blocks as fuel.
>
>
>
> - A Saviem truck with a crew-cabin and the traditional system
>
> gasgenerator, cyclone, cooler and filter just behind the cabin,
>
> with no reheating, or paper-filter.
>
>
>
> - One Jeep Cherokee with the system arranged on an
>
> "integrated" trailer, meaning that the two parallel
>
> horizontal glasfibre filter "tubes" are part of the trailer's
>
> undercarriage. The system comprises an Imbert-style generator
>
> with a condensing gutter in the silo, primary air heat
> exchanger
>
> built as three cylindrical double-sheets around the hearth
> wall.
>
> Then a cooler in front of the generator, condense tank,
>
> reheating and paper filter, from where the gas is delivered to
>
> the transportation tube under the car, to the mixer.
>
> A change-over mechanism for smooth choice of gasoline or
>
> woodgas in any ratio from the dashboard during driving from
>
> a separate carburettor and mixer. Ignition adjustment from the
>
> dashboard.
>
>
>
>
>
> - Four passenger cars:
>
> A Continental with a last year built peat fuelled generator,
>
> A Volvo having the system hanging on the tail.
>
> One BMW with the system built in the trunk,
>
> And a SAAB with an Imbert, glasfibre filter,
>
> water-glycol cooler,
>
> reheating and paper filter, all arranged on a trailer.
>
>
>
>
>
> http://www.mobilia.fi/englanti.htm
>
>
>
> That is all.
>
>
>
>
>
> Max
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Thomas Reed" <tombreed at comcast.net>
>
> To: "gasman" <gasman at welho.com>; "gasificATION"
> <GASIFICATION at listserv.repp.org>
>
> Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 2:39 AM
>
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] another aproach to producing a clean gas
>
>
>
>> Dear Max:
>>
>> Where is the annual woodgas jamboree held and can you send us a
>> description and report when you return...
>>
>> Yours truly,
>>
>> TOM REED GASIFICATION
>>
>> gasman wrote:
>>>
>>> To Jim Mason
>>>
>>> There are two fundamental factors, that make the
>>> idea of "storing" woodgas on a vehicle unrealistic:
>>>
>>> 1. CO will "fall apart" (more complicated?) when compressed:
>>> 2CO ==> CO2 + 2C. (Corrected 5.6.2006)
>>>
>>> 2. As the heating value of woodgas is low, the amounts
>>> for a reasonable using time are huge; the motor supposed
>>> to go idle, will have a heavy job in driving a compressor
>>> "for almost nothing"... back! But of course the draft in the
>>> gasgenerator will be kept up.
>>>
>>> Energy-vice it would be easier to use an electric ventilator
>>> to supply a torch, or some useful heating.
>>>
>>> Still, these are only handling the symptoms, and covering up
>>> the real reasons!
>>>
>>> During the WWII a turn down ratio of 18:1 was achieved
>>> just by taking care of good insulation, so there is a lesson
>>> to take after!
>>>
>>> Now, a natural addition is to take care of good heat-exchange
>>> from the ready made raw-gas to the primary air.
>>> Another prominent factor is to dry out both physical and
>>> the greater part of the "chemical water" from the fuel, before
>>> it reaches the hearth.
>>>
>>> That makes a better starting point for making good gas, even
>>> with increased turn down ratios.
>>>
>>> On my way today 4.6.2006 to the yearly woodgas jamboree...
>>>
>>> Max
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> ----------------------------------------
> Jag använder gratisversionen av SPAMfighter för privata användare.
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 06:32:58 -0600
> From: Thomas Reed <tombreed at comcast.net>
> Subject: [Gasification] Re: [Stoves] RE: Durability of Stainless Steel
> To: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispin at newdawn.sz>
> Cc: GASIFICATION <GASIFICATION at listserv.repp.org>, Stoves
> <stoves at listserv.repp.org>
> Message-ID: <4484247A.3080705 at comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Dear Crispin, Dean and All:
>
> Good question and answers below.
>
> We are continually amazed that "tincanium" last forever in applications
> where chemical reactions can reach 900C. I believe this is explained by
> Das's rule:
>
> A metal container will reach a temperature ~ halfway between the outside
> and the inside.
>
> It is also explained by the fact that radiant heat loss from the outside
> surface is proportional to (surface temperature )^4.
>
> So use stainless when you must, but be glad that is is often not
> necessary. Harder to cut, weld, braze and buy.
>
> TOM REED BEF
>
> Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:
>> Dear Dean
>>
>> Of that group, the two with the highest temperature resistance are 309
>> (which is a European knock-off of 3CR12) and 409.
>>
>> 3CR12 is a titanium-stabilized low chrome stainless with a maximum
>> working
>> temperature of 750 C. Above that the chrome starts to precipitate and
>> the
>> oxidation sites on the iron are exposed as the chrome finds its like and
>> forms little balls. Rust is the result. It is very abrasion resistant.
>>
>> 409 is used on catalytic converters and has a working temp of up to 745
>> or
>> so. The destruction process is about the same.
>>
>> The others are more susceptible to heat, though they resist other things
>> like acids and alkalis better up to certain temperatures.
>>
>> None of them will last a long time at 975 so whatever you are doing, use
>> 309
>> or 409 and plan to replace the part (i.e. design it to be easy to do so).
>>
>> Regards
>> Crispin
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dean Still" <dstill at epud.net>
>> To: "'Stoves-List'" <stoves at listserv.repp.org>; "'ethos'"
>> <ethos at vrac.iastate.edu>
>> Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 3:31 AM
>> Subject: [Stoves] Durability of Stainless Steel
>>
>>
>> Dear STOVERS,
>>
>> Does anyone have the practical experience to predict the lifespan of 309,
>> 310, 304 and 430 Stainless Steel at 975C?
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Dean
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>> http://www.bioenergylists.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>> http://www.bioenergylists.org
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 06:51:40 -0600
> From: Thomas Reed <tombreed at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] V-hearth or choke plate?
> To: Jeff Davis <jeff0124 at velocity.net>
> Cc: Michael Cushman <mcushman at infoscitex.com>,
> gasification at listserv.repp.org
> Message-ID: <448428DC.3030607 at comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Dear Jeff and All:
>
> I believe the choke plate displaced the V hearth toward the end of
> WWII. It is certainly a lot easier to make - and size.
>
> TOM REED BEF
>
> Jeff Davis wrote:
>> Dear List,
>>
>> Is the choke plate as good as the V-hearth in regards to insulation?
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 08:55:10 -0500
> From: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Re MDF Gasification
> To: Doug Williams <Doug.Williams at orcon.net.nz>
> Cc: GASIFICATION at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
> Message-ID: <20060605085510.eho3cgtvk4cw8c8w at webmail2.ilstu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed"
>
> Doug,
>
> Your message and the Internet site are very informative. Nice to see
> photos of
> such a compact and cleanly designed unit.
>
> Congratulations on your accomplishments!!!!!!!!
>
> What is the approximate raw fuel consumption (weight) per hour at full
> speed? I
> am trying to get a sense of quantities of fuel, although my own
> applications are
> much smaller.
>
> I am very interested in the "snapper" for preparing the fuel. Clearly
> works
> well with uniform strips from the factory, but could also have
> application with
> small branches (perhaps limit it to 2 to 4 cm maximum diameter??).
> Cutting and
> chomping are not the same as "snapping". Can you send more info or
> links/contacts about the snapper for fuel preparation, please?
>
> Paul
>
> Quoting Doug Williams <Doug.Williams at orcon.net.nz>:
>
>> Hi Gasification Colleagues,
>>
>> For those of you still interested in being informed of commercial
>> gasification development, I have posted information and photos of MDF
>> waste
>> gasification being done at our licensee, Innovation Technologies
>> (Ireland)
>> Ltd near Belfast. This is also the first time that the all new Atlantic
>> Class gasifier (70-80 kWe) has been shown to the wider public. You can
>> see
>> this on the Fluidyne Archive www.fluidynenz.250x.com under MDF
>> Gasification.
>>
>> Doug Williams,
>> Fluidyne Gasification.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gasification mailing list
>> Gasification at listserv.repp.org
>> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification
>> http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/gasification
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Geography professor - Emeritus
> Telephone: USA-309-452-7072 (residence and office)
> Internet site: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
> For my gasifier stoves info, go to (below) and click on my name:
> http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/contributions.html
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using Illinois State University Webmail.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:31:29 -0400
> From: "andy schofield" <scothebuilder at hotmail.com>
> Subject: [Gasification] Gasifying coconuts and eating them too.
> To: gasification at listserv.repp.org
> Message-ID: <BAY102-F2902BD42EBB04A14FE0D67A8940 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
> Dear Ananda,
>
> Coconut charcoal has very good caracteristics for removing bad things in
> drinking water. Also this charcoal has important use as a way to capture
> volitile chemicals from air. An industrial use in my country for instance,
> is when refilling a tank with gasoline, the gasoline vapors are captured
> in
> a bed of coconut charcoal, rather than letting it escape into the air.
> Other
> permutits are now beginning to compete with coconut charcoal, but you
> can't
> beat the cost of using them...easily.
>
> Community Power Corp. in Colorado, and Fluidyne in New Zealand have
> experience with using coconuts for making shaft power. Please read Dr.
> Reed's paper on gas superficial velocity. It shows certain relationships
> between gas-making/char-making in a gasifier.
>
> In an earlier gasifier I built, I saw a relationship between making gas
> fuel, and making charcoal from the seeds of cherry fruit. I found I could
> select and favor production of either lots of gas, or lots of charcoal by
> how fast the electric blower I used turned. This means if the blower-shaft
> is turning fast, the gasifier makes more gas, If the blower-shaft is
> turning
> slower, the gasifier makes more charcoal. Exactly how much of either is
> still unknown, because I have no expensive instruments, but it is a
> noticeable difference by volume, in steel-barrels after hours, and hours
> of
> operation.
>
> How big is your pile of coconut shells?
>
> Andy Schofield
> Great Lakes Renewable Fuels
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
>
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>
>
> End of Gasification Digest, Vol 23, Issue 6
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