[Gasification] Woodward governors/gas mixers

[Sylvain CHAVAND]

Hi all,

I used to be the technical manager of a Woodward distributor in France
and here are some more informations about that module :
Part number : 9907-865
List price : $1671.00 

There are also other systems one for lean burn instead of
stoechiometric, one another cheaper but older (programmable under DOS
!).
All of them will be soon replaced by the new fully programmable
elctronic governor system 2300G.

Sylvain CHAVAND

At 09:12 AM 5/21/2006 -0400, andy schofield wrote:
>
>
>Ahoy Peter,
>
>Last year, I contacted Woodward about low BTU gas-mixers. I got a 
>reply.
>They said there was sombody already using special mixers for producer
gas 
>fueled engines (probably a list member). I'll see if I can find the
address 
>again...Meanwhile what kinds of questions need answered about their 
>products? They have been in business for a long time, and have seen it
all; 
>every thing between powerful hydraulic speed control for steam turbines
to 
>precise stepper control valves for tiny gas engines. Yep from open
flyballs 
>to PLCs.
>
>  You are planning to use these on those Listeroids and the Chang Fa?
>
>Andy Schofield
>GLRF
>


Hi Andy;

My real interest is in electronic governors --

Right at this moment I have a single cylinder -- normal 650 RPM -- 6 HP
-- running highly derated at but 375 RPM.

Actual hands on results show I can produce a peak of 1500 watts in this
manner -- and comfortably run continuously a load of 1000 watts -- and
of course -- less.

My entire house here uses -- on average -- 700 to 800 watts with
everything running.

Anyway -- one of the first problems was serious light flickering at such
low RPM operation - -this was solved by fitting a flywheel from a Chang
Fa 175 diesel back of the pulley on the gen shaft.

The next large problem was extremely poor governor response.

I tinkered on that for a while and managed to solve the problem for Hz
dopping out when loads change -- but only to 900 watts or so -- the weak
governor response at those low rpm insufficient to open rack fully.

Ergo -- I went searching for Electronic Governors and found Woodward.

The specific models of interest -- governor and actuators:

Actuator

http://www.dynaproducts.com/pdf/salespdf/f-24405.pdf

Or

http://www.woodward.com/pdf/ic/03324.pdf

or another model

http://www.woodward.com/pdf/ic/36501.pdf

Governor:

APECS500

http://www.woodward.com/pdf/ic/36710.pdf

Full tech manual for:

http://www.woodward.com/pubs/download.cfm?link=/PDF/IC/SE-4107.PDF

APECS 4500

http://www.woodward.com/pdf/ic/apecs4500ww.pdf

Full tech manual for:

http://www.woodward.com/pubs/download.cfm?link=/PDF/IC/SE-4097.PDF


Eventually -- this looks like the good solution -- for mass production.

However -- for people like me here in Belize -- it is little to no
solution.

So I then considered and alternative.

A smaller -- less complicated "Electronic Governor's Helper"

Leave the mechanical governor in place -- but apply a small solenoid
with
-- through a light spring linkage/drive -- exerts some extra forward
travel when Hz of generator set drops below 60 -- and off when Hz rises
above 61.

A bridge rectifier -- A zener -- some capacitors -- a few variable
resistant pots.

Nice little solenoids are available at:

www.mpja.com

Item # 9750-SL

120 volts AC -- 272 oz pull -- 1/8 in stroke -- $6.95

I do need some help designing that on/off solenoid control circuit
though.

All of this to test to destruction (if need be) the concept of Slow Go
Listers for extra fuel economy during light loads.

The eventual set would be more along these lines -- and fully automatic
-- 

I have appended a com with George at Utterpower on the complete outline
-- 

Some notes -- according to an old lister handbook I have -- they were
factory made to run "derated" to 500 RPM.

Going 375 is forcing this issue -- agreed -- but the new Lister clones
are very well set up with huge tapered ball bearing on the crank mains.

Further -- one can three stage the genset -- doing -- say -- 1000 watts
-- 2.5 kw -- and 5 kw -- as well as just two stage.

My prototype set-up is to "prove" the concept that great fuel economy
can be achieved by lower RPM for light loads -- thus having diesel in
the right fuel to air mixture mode.

And even more -- at such low RPM plenty of time for even the slowest
burning lean mixture to fully expand against piston.

I hope to realize near 50% fuel saving in real time genset operation in
this manner.

The discussion below also involves the charcoal gasifier project. Which
some of you might remember being discussed.

I have some fine pictures of the present set up in "operation" - -and
have already power my house -- with perfect current- - no flicker- - for
a straight 12 hour period.

The motor operating in a very "peaceful" manner is of further benefit to
our sense of sounds.

And yes -- these same small Woodward electronic governors would be very
helpful in controlling the diesel engine running on producer gas -- as
well as the charcoal gasifier through an O2 sensor feed back link.

However -- little interest out there so far to pursue this direction
further.

Me feels everyone but plays -- no one is really trying to "live" a fuel
shortage situation.

My clients here are already living in such a world -- ergo -- my
interest in pursuing these matters further.

As I have oft repeated -- all further developments in these fields of
endeavor will -- from now on -- be driven by 3rd world necessities --
not first world "hobbyists"

And as always -- there can be no meeting of minds across the wealth
barrier --

What a shame -- but so goes human nature -- I have learned to live with
it
-- not whine about it --

Content to know who will have the greatest satisfaction -- at the end.

Peter / Belize

************appended***************

George;

I am not "selling" anything -- 

I just am prototyping this in stages -- ergo -- first stage -- running
an ST 5 kw at 375 rpm.

Getting that tuned into operation -- then doing some real long term
destructive testing ---

First problem -- governor needs help -- 

so now -- fix that first -- then i can move on.

But -- eventual flow diagram --

Lister 8 HP at 850 RPM running 5 kw ST head -- with automatic switch
over
-- on the fly -- to 375 rpm -- driving a 1.5 kw ST head. 

It requires -- then -- a fully electronic governor (with two settings)
-- not just a "helper"

A magnetic clutch then engages the 1.5 KW head 

Now -- flat belt drive from Lister Flywheel to 5 kw ST -- as you already
do
-- but the ST 5 kw has a 175 china single diesel flywheel mated to it --

That flywheel also -- like the lister's -- is a perfect flat belt pulley
(or as you call em -- serpentine belts)

Flat belt drive from that flywheel to the 1.5 kw ST -- that gearing up
putting the ST 1.5 at 1800 RPM --

The magnetic clutch on the ST 1.5 kw head.

Cause that has to be switched out of the power train when the engine is
back to 850 RPM -- or else it would fly apart.

When the lister turns at 375 -- the ST 5 kw armature coils are turned
off
-- and the 1.5 kw clutch pops on --

You would use an inverter with a small battery pack to match loads --
the transition would be smooth.

You now have a dual performance cycle Lister.

Maybe something you can sell??

My customers will do all the above "manually" so they can cut their fuel
consumption bill substantially.

But to prove this entire concept I can only move in "stages"

Stage one is proving the Slow Go Lister concept -- agreed??

Now -- if your willing to do supply a little input -- and then be
guaranteed to be in this loop -- at least put together the interim
"Electronic Governor's Helper" fix and mail it down to me!!

That is a little board that can trigger a solenoid -- as discussed -- to
"help" the governor add extra muscle when load goes high -- anything
less than 60 hz -- kicks on -- anything more than 61 -- off.

Should weight less than one pound when done -- and cost $10 to mail --
regular post.

My gasifiers -- four of them -- will be delivered here in about 4 more
months -- and that is the next Lister project in the works.

In that one the engine stays full RPM -- always -- but only uses diesel
for power from 3 kw and up -- under that it switches over to charcoal
gasification only.

Producer gas has less BTU energy -- so the engine fueled by it is
greatly derated.

Fine -- they say 60% power -- that is 3 kw.

It will involve a simple controller for the glow plugs required.

As with glow plugs -- producer gas will compression ignite without
requiring a spurt of diesel -- as they do now in dual fueling -- and end
up spending -- in real time -- 35% on diesel -- just to ignite the
producer gas.

I want zero diesel -- 100% producer gas -- only.

So now the power plant is a charcoal burner.

My other option is to use my Chinese agent to directly approach the
Woodward Manufacturers there (Like in China) to buy "cheap" their
Electronic Diesel Governors --

But that takes a year -- or more -- and first -- I need to know if the
Lister will take this or not -- just like you need to know -- before
going that route.

I do need a little support -- which is the "helper" -- just to reach the
next stage of development -- small -- tiny thing -- but one that will
probably hold me back months -- to accomplish from "here"

And Hey -- are you going to even try eliminating "flicker" by installing
a $12.95  flywheel on the generator shaft??

My customers here refuse to accept any kind of flickering in their power
plant supplies at all!!

Surprised yours can live with it ---

But then -- are they really living off what their Listers are putting
out or just having a new hobby??

As for the help the man run on bio-oils -- 

I am planing on running on cohune palm oil soon as I get the governor
helper problems solved.

Cohune palms grow wild here in huge amounts -- a totally renewable
energy source - - with many bonus by products.

The world's best material to make the best activated charcoal from (or
regular charcoal for the gasifiers I am getting)

And excellent bio diesel fuel -- (basically -- same as coconut oil)

And large amounts of high protein animal feed -- as is -- from the press
cake residue.

I am trying to do real time self sustainability -- but in a totally
different environment then where you are -- using the "best" resources
directly available to one and all.

I do not plan to make millions selling this to the global bloatware
crowd --

But you might find a few points of interest that could make you those
millions for your market place up there -- right??

Ok -- I realize nobody up your way really cares about saving fuel costs
-- yet!!

But advise you play the future short in regards to fuel prices coming
down
-- all the same.

As some point they will really "care" --

And George -- here is something you might need to know.

Those $12.95 flywheels bolt right on to an ST 5 kw head -- no
machining!!

All I have to do was drill and thread a 1/2 threaded hole in end of gen
shaft to accept a bolt to press it all together -- even the keyway
matches!!

Flicker fix -- $12.95 -- and 1/2 hour with a hand drill.

There you be George -- progress report fini!
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