[Gasification] SFC for De-rated EnginesWas:smallscalegasifiers for those that need them

Sun Jul 1 19:59:16 EDT 2007

Peter,

Just to let you know - resorting to personal attacks when on anyone 
disagrees with you is a sign either of poor knowledge of the material and/or 
a weak personality.

You are operating in a self-made trench of survival in Belize and do not 
have all the technical equipment to fully evaluate the combustion process 
going on in your engines to make some of the claims you do in your 
statements.

My statement, and I will make it again -  if you run an engine at a slower 
RPM with the same combustion pressure as when it runs at full load, it will 
very likely fail from ring blowby at some time.  Just because the engines 
around you have operated for a few years without failure tells me that the 
combustion pressures are lower in those engines than the engines could 
actually handle.  Now what is so hard to understand about that.

Another word of advice - park the personal attacks, it does not enhance your 
message.  They only serve to make you look smaller than what you actually 
have to contribute to this technical list.

Art Krenzel

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Singfield" <snkm at btl.net>
To: <gasification at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Gasification] SFC for De-rated EnginesWas:smallscalegasifiers 
for those that need them

> At 12:40 PM 7/1/2007 -0700, you wrote:
>>There are too many parameters that feed into engine life that it is
>>difficult to make a conclusive statement "doing this will reduce engine 
>>life
>>by 35%" by operating outside of one design point.  That is why I suggested
>>that Peter make a concerted effort to monitor blowby to determine what is
>>happening to his piston rings.
>>
>
> Well -- over the service period -- it still would work out the same -- as
> the engine "strokes" 40 percent less!!
>
> The big destroyer of these small single cylinder diesels is "VIBRATION" --
> and that is greatly reduced when running at 60% of their "normal" rated 
> RPM
> ---
>
> Look -- some have been running two years now -- usually a Chinese single
> running at rated RPM making power 8 to 12 hours lives from 10 to 14 
> months!!
>
> Also remember -- the derated engine is much more "beefy" for the power it
> is demanded to supply.
>
> And that power is always about half of it's maximum rated -- anyway --
> being as gensets need at least double capacity HP than regular steady load
> to handle starting surges.
>
> By the way -- running diesels at rated RPM but half of less load does not
> hurt them??
>
> That is running on to lean air/fuel mixtures 98% or more of their usage
> time does not hurt them??
>
> In the case example mentioned -- 98% of operation was at 800 watts and 
> less
> -- for a rated sweet point system of 3500 watts -- so less than 1/4!!
>
> The deep well water pump added a huge surge factor -- but in the derated
> system that is handled by the flywheel on the generator shaft (which you 
> or
> other also had to call a crazy idea -- promising it would destroy the
> system!!)
>
> Art - -excuse me -- your talking theory -- and large direct injection 
> truck
> engines -- scuse me -- I am talking 12 HP and less single cylinder diesels
> -- and about "practice" -- not theory.
>
> The rest of you one this list go the way you prefer -- it is no skin off 
> my
> butt if Art convinces the bunch of you what we are in affect achieving 
> here
> in real time -- simply can't be happening!!
>
> Art -- the engines running derated are not banging away at full
> charge/pressures either -- but only 2% or less of the time. The rest of 
> the
> time they run at around the half way point (rather than the 1/4 way 
> point!!)
>
> You have missed all the points so completely I am wondering what kind of
> "religion" your belonging to these days??
>
> My house runs average 800 Watts -- my system could put our 3500 watts --
> running a single Lister at 750 RPM.
>
> Now it runs at 375 RPM -- and maxes out -- black smoke -- at over 1500 
> watts.
>
> But 98% of the time it runs only 800 watts or less!! 800 watts is maximum
> (all lights -- all fans -- freezer - -computer -- everything)
>
> The big deal is the system uses 1/2 the diesel -- that is 3 quarts of
> diesel -- rather than 1.5 gallons -- to do this!!
>
> And at 1/2 the rpm -- 1/2 the oil changes -- etc.
>
> The mains are huge tapered ball bearings -- running splash lubrication --
> they really do not care what RPM things are moving ta -- but slower is 
> less
> wear for them -- period!!
>
> The rod big end is lubed by a small pipe attached to the bottom bearing 
> cap
> that splashes into the oil pool in the base -- there is no oil pump or
> pressure lubrication system!!
>
> Cooling is by "tank" -- it runs at boiling water temps -- no matter what 
> RPM!!
>
> Listen you all -- Art know best -- do as he says -- just ignore me and my
> work -- that makes both Art and me happier -- win win situation as they 
> say.
>
> Art -- the Mennonites in Little Belize community have been running an old
> Truck 250 Cummins diesel derated to 1100 RPM for five years now (naturally
> aspirated) as a genset power plant -- and it still is running perfectly!!
>
> What I would love to see is you coming here to tell them what fools they 
> be!!
>
> I would explain in detail why the gain of 50% in fuel economy -- but 
> hey --
> your "church" would not allow you to look at it anyway!!
>
> Lean mixtures burn slower -- thus burn out through the exhaust stroke.
>
> This also greatly increases engine heat -- as instead of energy going out
> as "power" -- from the power stroke -- it goes out as combustion heat!!
>
> Course -- according to Art -- hotter the better for a diesel -- and to 
> cool
> would destroy the engine!!
>
> That you all take this "serious" -- is just to much!!
>
> Oscar -- your into emulating "them" know??
>
> Well -- there goes your ball park!!
>
> True Oscar -- I have no grants or other monies to give out -- so I kind of
> understand.
>
> You hang with the Grants people -- and in my opinion -- they all will hang
> together -- 
>
> Your farmers where you are Oscar would have greatly appreciated the fuel
> economy plus the much greater equipment durability -- but hey -- farmers 
> do
> not hand out grants either -- do they??
>
> Art -- your really on some kind of a trip these days -- is all I have to
> comment!!
>
> You have impressed Oscar to no end with your brilliant deductions based on
> theories-- the wrong parameters -- etc --
>
> You must be responsible for grant approvals or something??
>
> More blow-back because the combustion time is extended!!
>
> How about more power thus economy because the time of expansion is 
> increased??
>
> Rather than run higher RPM -- much leaner fuel mixture - -thus much slower
> combustion (gop check it out dude!!) thus most of the heat ending up in 
> the
> exhaust stroke -- increasing exhaust pressures -- greatly reducing engine
> efficiencies -- and to much over heating!!
>
> Your the only person I know of that suggests more waste heat in a diesel 
> is
> good for it!!!
>
> And I have been lurking -- and watching all the list -- suck it all up!!
>
> You folks are no longer into reasoned logical thought processes -- are 
> you!!
>
> And your sure great on denial of what is actually happening in observable
> real time to -- eh!!
>
> This is the last you hear from me on this subject -- these words -- right 
> now:
>
> Art is right -- it does not work -- motors blow up in mere hours -- so do
> not even think of trying it -- keep burning twice as much diesel than you
> need to make that power -- because after all -- change in your life styles
> is non negotiable.
>
> But we backward idiot fools here in 3rd world will continue running 
> derated
> diesels -- mainly because we "need" to make our power -- and we are so
> stupid and don't know better!! We can't do the smart thing -- massive
> deficit spending and li8ve off grant monies like you smart folks do!!
>
> Art -- you especially -- should never be seen running a derated diesel set
> up -- right!!
>
> And some one better warn Ken Boak that he is destroying his Lister engine
> running derated to!!
>
>
> Peter/Belize
>
>
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