[Gasification] Gasification Digest, Vol 9, Issue 47

[David]

Wow.....this really has NOTHING to do with gasification.

PLEASE REMOVE ME.

David Green
"Rootless half diminished"
"A voicing that resolves two ways"
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <gasification-request at listserv.repp.org>
To: <gasification at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 7:36 PM
Subject: Gasification Digest, Vol 9, Issue 47


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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Got you calculators handy?? (Harmon Seaver)
>   2. Re: Got you calculators handy?? (Tom Miles)
>   3. Re: Got you calculators handy?? (Tom Miles)
>   4. NO SANITY OR REASON? (gfwhell at aol.com)
>   5. Re: Got you calculators handy?? (Michael Redler)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:02:21 -0500
> From: Harmon Seaver <hseaver at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Got you calculators handy??
> To: gasification at listserv.repp.org
> Message-ID: <4604324D.1010000 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>   There's a pretty large basic flaw in this argument:
> When you burn corn (gasify or not) you extract the energy, but have only
> ash left.
> When you digest the corn, you also extract energy (methane) but also
> have some fertilizer left -- the digester slurry or sludge.
> But when you ferment the corn for alcohol, you lose nothing. You extract
> the energy (alcohol) but you grow a lot of very digestible high-protein
> yeast in the process. So the lie that ethanol production is burning food
> is just that, a lie. There is no food lost in ethanol production, at
> least from corn.
>   That's not to say that corn is at all the best feedstock for ethanol.
>
> But why are we discussing this on the gasification list? We have three
> other lists where it would be much more appropriate -- digestion (at
> least for the AD end of it), bioconversion, and bioenergy. How many
> people do we have to lose -- like Greg, who have contributed one heck of
> a lot to the gasification discussion -- before people get it?
>
>
> Daniel Chisholm wrote:
>> On Thu, 2007-22-03 at 20:40 -0600, Peter Singfield wrote:
>>> Maize flower = ground corn
>>>
>>> Extracted from this url:
>>>
>>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/en/compactbiogas
>>>
>>> "Maize flour is an excellent feedstock for a biogas digester. One would 
>>> get
>>> about 250 g of methane from 1 kg of maize flour. Methane would have a
>>> calorific value of about 11000kCal/kg. So the 250 g would have about 
>>> 2750
>>> kilocalories"
>>
>> Producing 250g of methane from 1000g of carbohydrate sounds to me a lot
>> like getting 25 cents for a dollar.
>>
>> (OK, I'll admit that methane has a bit more than twice the energy per kg
>> than a carbohydrate does.  So it's not as bad as I blithely suggest,
>> you're actually getting about 58 cents for your dollar).
>>
>>> What would be the equivelent net energy from 1 kg of corn converted to
>>> ethanol??
>>
>> Before asking if ethanol is a better way to use corn, I think we should
>> ask whether corn is the right feedstock to use as an energy source.
>>
>> Since this is the gasification list, we know that instead of letting
>> bugs turn it into methane, or enzymes and yeast turn it into alcohol
>> (each process being on the order of 50-60% efficient), we could instead
>> gasify it into CO and H2, at a net conversion efficiency of 70%-90%
>> (depending on the gasifier design and also whether you need a cold,
>> cleaned gas or if hot "dirty" gas is OK).
>>
>> Putting aside for the moment the moral and other nontangible issues that
>> surround the burning of food, and focusing our money-grubbing coldly
>> rational economics selves on the narrowest of dollars-and-cents issues,
>> we see that food is expensive in comparison to energy commodities (be
>> they fossil or renewable).  And this is necessarily going to always be
>> the case, even from a thermodynamics basis (all food is energy, but not
>> all energy is food).  Eaters will always be able to outbid burners.
>>
>> Assuming corn is (approximately) the same energy value as wood, you need
>> about 117 pounds of corn per mmBTU.  Since corn is 56 pounds per bushel
>> according to a quick Google search I just did, we can say (close enough
>> for engineering purposes) that two bushels of corn is about a million
>> BTUs.
>>
>> So if corn is at $4/bushel, that's about $8/mmBTU.  This is a bit
>> cheaper than natural gas today, much more expensive than NG in The Good
>> Old Days, and roughly the same price as (perhaps a wee bit cheaper than)
>> #6 fuel oil today.  Coal is $2-$4/mmBTU, diesel oil or gasoline is about
>> $20/mmBTU, and 10c/kWh electricity is about $30/mmBTU.
>>
>> And $50/wet-tonne(50%mc) hog fuel is $5/mmBTU.  A gasification list
>> member from British Columbia recently declared that he would personally
>> bury in mountain of hog fuel anyone willing to pay $50/tonne for the
>> privilege... ;-)
>>
>>
>> (Isn't it great that simple greed will keep our food supply safe from
>> being burnt?  Count the $/mmBTUs, and the grain will keep... ;-)
>>
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Harmon Seaver
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:52:56 -0700
> From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com>
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Got you calculators handy??
> To: "'Daniel Chisholm'" <dmc at danielchisholm.com>, "'Peter Singfield'"
> <snkm at btl.net>
> Cc: gasification at listserv.repp.org
> Message-ID: <010001c76d8d$3cc617e0$b65247a0$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Referring to Pimental & Patzek (2005, "Ethanol Production Using Corn,
> Switchgrass, and Wood; Biodiesel Production Using Soybean and Sunflower",
> David Pimentel and Tad W. Patzek,
> http://petroleum.berkeley.edu/papers/Biofuels/NRRethanol.2005.pdf ):
>
> 1 liter of Ethanol contains 5130 kCal
> 2.69 kg corn will produce 1 liter of ethanol (0.371 L/kg corn)
>
> 0.371 L/kg corn x 5130 kCal/L = 1907 kCal from 1 kg corn( maize)
>
> As a byproduct you have .306 kg distillers grains and solubles (DGS) per 
> kg
> maize
> At 250 g methane/kg DGS this would produce 0.076 kg methane
> 0.076 kg methane x 11000 kCal/kg = 835 kCal
>
> So from 1 kg maize (corn) you get:
> 1907 kCal as liquid ethanol
> 835 kCal as methane
> 2742 kCal/kg maize/2750 kCal/kg maize as methane = 99.7% energy yield
> compared with digesting maize alone.
>
> Note: The "net" energy argument a la Pimental belongs on the
> bioconversion at listserv.repp.org list.
>
> A useful conclusion is that 1/3 of the input maize (corn) to the ethanol
> process represented by the DGS can be recovered as useful energy via
> digestion if you're not using it as feed energy to produce food (beef). 
> The
> other third of the maize (corn) converts to CO2 which can be fed to the
> digester to boost methane production.
>
> Dr. Karve's sugar consuming Compact Biogas digester is a pretty useful
> device.
>
> Someone mentioned using digester gas to fuel an engine normally powered by 
> a
> biomass gasifier when the gasifier is not running. A typical gasifier
> conversion is 1.4 kg (3 lb) wood per kWh. If we use 1 kg maize as input to
> the gasifier and how many kWh can we produce?
>
> Tom Miles
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gasification-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> [mailto:gasification-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of Daniel 
> Chisholm
> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 7:40 AM
> To: Peter Singfield
> Cc: gasification at listserv.repp.org
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Got you calculators handy??
>
> On Thu, 2007-22-03 at 20:40 -0600, Peter Singfield wrote:
>> Maize flower = ground corn
>>
>> Extracted from this url:
>>
>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/en/compactbiogas
>
>>
>> "Maize flour is an excellent feedstock for a biogas digester. One would
> get
>> about 250 g of methane from 1 kg of maize flour. Methane would have a
>> calorific value of about 11000kCal/kg. So the 250 g would have about 2750
>> kilocalories"
>
> Producing 250g of methane from 1000g of carbohydrate sounds to me a lot
> like getting 25 cents for a dollar.
>
> (OK, I'll admit that methane has a bit more than twice the energy per kg
> than a carbohydrate does.  So it's not as bad as I blithely suggest,
> you're actually getting about 58 cents for your dollar).
>
>> What would be the equivelent net energy from 1 kg of corn converted to
>> ethanol??
>
> Before asking if ethanol is a better way to use corn, I think we should
> ask whether corn is the right feedstock to use as an energy source.
>
> Since this is the gasification list, we know that instead of letting
> bugs turn it into methane, or enzymes and yeast turn it into alcohol
> (each process being on the order of 50-60% efficient), we could instead
> gasify it into CO and H2, at a net conversion efficiency of 70%-90%
> (depending on the gasifier design and also whether you need a cold,
> cleaned gas or if hot "dirty" gas is OK).
>
> Putting aside for the moment the moral and other nontangible issues that
> surround the burning of food, and focusing our money-grubbing coldly
> rational economics selves on the narrowest of dollars-and-cents issues,
> we see that food is expensive in comparison to energy commodities (be
> they fossil or renewable).  And this is necessarily going to always be
> the case, even from a thermodynamics basis (all food is energy, but not
> all energy is food).  Eaters will always be able to outbid burners.
>
> Assuming corn is (approximately) the same energy value as wood, you need
> about 117 pounds of corn per mmBTU.  Since corn is 56 pounds per bushel
> according to a quick Google search I just did, we can say (close enough
> for engineering purposes) that two bushels of corn is about a million
> BTUs.
>
> So if corn is at $4/bushel, that's about $8/mmBTU.  This is a bit
> cheaper than natural gas today, much more expensive than NG in The Good
> Old Days, and roughly the same price as (perhaps a wee bit cheaper than)
> #6 fuel oil today.  Coal is $2-$4/mmBTU, diesel oil or gasoline is about
> $20/mmBTU, and 10c/kWh electricity is about $30/mmBTU.
>
> And $50/wet-tonne(50%mc) hog fuel is $5/mmBTU.  A gasification list
> member from British Columbia recently declared that he would personally
> bury in mountain of hog fuel anyone willing to pay $50/tonne for the
> privilege... ;-)
>
>
> (Isn't it great that simple greed will keep our food supply safe from
> being burnt?  Count the $/mmBTUs, and the grain will keep... ;-)
>
>
> -- 
> - Daniel
> Fredericton, NB  Canada
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gasification mailing list
> Gasification at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_listserv.repp.org
> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:04:14 -0700
> From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com>
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Got you calculators handy??
> To: <gasification at listserv.repp.org>
> Message-ID: <010c01c76d8e$d0403180$70c09480$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> The intended question is:
>
> If we use 1 kg maize (corn) input to a digester and feed the gas to an
> engine that normally generates power from wood gas, how many kWh can we
> produce?
>
> Tom
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gasification-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> [mailto:gasification-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of Tom Miles
> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 1:53 PM
> To: 'Daniel Chisholm'; 'Peter Singfield'
> Cc: gasification at listserv.repp.org
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Got you calculators handy??
>
> Referring to Pimental & Patzek (2005, "Ethanol Production Using Corn,
> Switchgrass, and Wood; Biodiesel Production Using Soybean and Sunflower",
> David Pimentel and Tad W. Patzek,
> http://petroleum.berkeley.edu/papers/Biofuels/NRRethanol.2005.pdf ):
>
> 1 liter of Ethanol contains 5130 kCal
> 2.69 kg corn will produce 1 liter of ethanol (0.371 L/kg corn)
>
> 0.371 L/kg corn x 5130 kCal/L = 1907 kCal from 1 kg corn( maize)
>
> As a byproduct you have .306 kg distillers grains and solubles (DGS) per 
> kg
> maize
> At 250 g methane/kg DGS this would produce 0.076 kg methane
> 0.076 kg methane x 11000 kCal/kg = 835 kCal
>
> So from 1 kg maize (corn) you get:
> 1907 kCal as liquid ethanol
> 835 kCal as methane
> 2742 kCal/kg maize/2750 kCal/kg maize as methane = 99.7% energy yield
> compared with digesting maize alone.
>
> Note: The "net" energy argument a la Pimental belongs on the
> bioconversion at listserv.repp.org list.
>
> A useful conclusion is that 1/3 of the input maize (corn) to the ethanol
> process represented by the DGS can be recovered as useful energy via
> digestion if you're not using it as feed energy to produce food (beef). 
> The
> other third of the maize (corn) converts to CO2 which can be fed to the
> digester to boost methane production.
>
> Dr. Karve's sugar consuming Compact Biogas digester is a pretty useful
> device.
>
> Someone mentioned using digester gas to fuel an engine normally powered by 
> a
> biomass gasifier when the gasifier is not running. A typical gasifier
> conversion is 1.4 kg (3 lb) wood per kWh. If we use 1 kg maize as input to
> the gasifier and how many kWh can we produce?
>
> Tom Miles
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gasification-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> [mailto:gasification-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of Daniel 
> Chisholm
> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 7:40 AM
> To: Peter Singfield
> Cc: gasification at listserv.repp.org
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Got you calculators handy??
>
> On Thu, 2007-22-03 at 20:40 -0600, Peter Singfield wrote:
>> Maize flower = ground corn
>>
>> Extracted from this url:
>>
>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/en/compactbiogas
>
>>
>> "Maize flour is an excellent feedstock for a biogas digester. One would
> get
>> about 250 g of methane from 1 kg of maize flour. Methane would have a
>> calorific value of about 11000kCal/kg. So the 250 g would have about 2750
>> kilocalories"
>
> Producing 250g of methane from 1000g of carbohydrate sounds to me a lot
> like getting 25 cents for a dollar.
>
> (OK, I'll admit that methane has a bit more than twice the energy per kg
> than a carbohydrate does.  So it's not as bad as I blithely suggest,
> you're actually getting about 58 cents for your dollar).
>
>> What would be the equivelent net energy from 1 kg of corn converted to
>> ethanol??
>
> Before asking if ethanol is a better way to use corn, I think we should
> ask whether corn is the right feedstock to use as an energy source.
>
> Since this is the gasification list, we know that instead of letting
> bugs turn it into methane, or enzymes and yeast turn it into alcohol
> (each process being on the order of 50-60% efficient), we could instead
> gasify it into CO and H2, at a net conversion efficiency of 70%-90%
> (depending on the gasifier design and also whether you need a cold,
> cleaned gas or if hot "dirty" gas is OK).
>
> Putting aside for the moment the moral and other nontangible issues that
> surround the burning of food, and focusing our money-grubbing coldly
> rational economics selves on the narrowest of dollars-and-cents issues,
> we see that food is expensive in comparison to energy commodities (be
> they fossil or renewable).  And this is necessarily going to always be
> the case, even from a thermodynamics basis (all food is energy, but not
> all energy is food).  Eaters will always be able to outbid burners.
>
> Assuming corn is (approximately) the same energy value as wood, you need
> about 117 pounds of corn per mmBTU.  Since corn is 56 pounds per bushel
> according to a quick Google search I just did, we can say (close enough
> for engineering purposes) that two bushels of corn is about a million
> BTUs.
>
> So if corn is at $4/bushel, that's about $8/mmBTU.  This is a bit
> cheaper than natural gas today, much more expensive than NG in The Good
> Old Days, and roughly the same price as (perhaps a wee bit cheaper than)
> #6 fuel oil today.  Coal is $2-$4/mmBTU, diesel oil or gasoline is about
> $20/mmBTU, and 10c/kWh electricity is about $30/mmBTU.
>
> And $50/wet-tonne(50%mc) hog fuel is $5/mmBTU.  A gasification list
> member from British Columbia recently declared that he would personally
> bury in mountain of hog fuel anyone willing to pay $50/tonne for the
> privilege... ;-)
>
>
> (Isn't it great that simple greed will keep our food supply safe from
> being burnt?  Count the $/mmBTUs, and the grain will keep... ;-)
>
>
> -- 
> - Daniel
> Fredericton, NB  Canada
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gasification mailing list
> Gasification at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_listserv.repp.org
> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gasification mailing list
> Gasification at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_listserv.repp.org
> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 18:32:06 -0400
> From: gfwhell at aol.com
> Subject: [Gasification] NO SANITY OR REASON?
> To: Gasification at listserv.repp.org
> Message-ID: <8C93BB238E55166-1470-2CDC at webmail-mf21.sysops.aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Peter.
>
> NO SANITY OR REASON?
>
> Regarding the investment , the American Tax payer has contributed toward 
> the de-stabilization of Iraq.
> Iraq is sitting on 1/3 of the known global oil reserves.
> Prior to the first invasion of Iraq, Oil was $12 a barrel,  this price, 
> being set by Iraqi "over production"
> This price did not suit ANY, "OTHER OIL PRODUCER.
> So it was arranged,  that some "slant" oil well drilling would take place 
> in the  Rumaila oil fields on the border, in order to PROVOKE a reaction 
> from this maverick oil producing country. Lateral drilling under the 
> border was a sure bet.
> The anticipated reaction by the Iraqi government, regarding the theft of 
> their oil.  resulted in:
> An Iraqi invasion on the culprits,  Giving an excuse for UN sanctions to 
> be imposed  upon THE PROVOCATEE. not the provocateur
> This worked really great. Oil companies could start making money again.
> Oil production by Iraq was now hobbled by UN sanctions.
> Had the war been carried to a "Conclusion" There would have been no reason 
> to impose sanctions.
> A new regime would have simply continued producing oil at the same rate, 
> or probably, more to defray expenses.
> After ten years of sanctions and lots of lies and propaganda.The sanctions 
> began to wear thin, The time was ripe to turn Iraq into a "TOTAL NON OIL 
> PRODUCER". This would assure the cornering of the oil market.
> So here we all are on the alternative fuel and energy lists.
> There are no mistakes or insanities in politics, just follow the money 
> trail.
>
> Gf
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: kennj at webspeed.dk
> To: gasification at listserv.repp.org
> Sent: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 8:39 AM
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] sugar beet pulp
>
>
> That math is to simple, the CASH FLOW! goes underway out to a lot of
> different people high......and low.
>
> Kenn
> fredag 23. mar 2007 kl. 02:37 skrev Jeff Davis:
>
>> Peter wrote:
>>> I'd say that is a better route to follow than spending trillions on
>>> pre-emptive wars of no sanity or reason!!
>>
>> Ref.: war spending
>>
>> Peter, that's fools paradise thinking. They want the fools to think
>> it's
>> spending money but it's not. It's CASH FLOW! The cash flows from the
>> fools
>> to the corporations (rich people). Simple math...
>>
>>
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jeff Davis
>>
>> Some where 20 miles south of Lake Erie, USA
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gasification mailing list
>> Gasification at listserv.repp.org
>> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/
>> gasification_listserv.repp.org
>> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gasification mailing list
> Gasification at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_listserv.repp.org
> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org
> ________________________________________________________________________
> AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free 
> from AOL at AOL.com.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 22:36:18 -0400
> From: Michael Redler <redlerm at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Got you calculators handy??
> To: gasification at listserv.repp.org
> Message-ID: <46048EA2.5090609 at yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Tom,
>
> With all due respect, I wouldn't give much credence to what Pimental or 
> Patzek have to say unless it's backed up by other sources.
>
> JTF has been keeping tabs on them (mostly Pimental)in their discussion 
> forum for quite a while. They have accumulated a great deal of data from 
> numerous sources which questions the viability of their conclusions:
>
> http://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=biofuel%40sustainablelists.org&q=pimentel 
> <http://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=biofuel%40sustainablelists.org&q=pimentel>
>
> Mike
>
>
> Tom Miles wrote:
>> Referring to Pimental & Patzek (2005, "Ethanol Production Using Corn,
>> Switchgrass, and Wood; Biodiesel Production Using Soybean and Sunflower",
>> David Pimentel and Tad W. Patzek,
>> http://petroleum.berkeley.edu/papers/Biofuels/NRRethanol.2005.pdf ):
>>
>> 1 liter of Ethanol contains 5130 kCal
>> 2.69 kg corn will produce 1 liter of ethanol (0.371 L/kg corn)
>>
>> 0.371 L/kg corn x 5130 kCal/L = 1907 kCal from 1 kg corn( maize)
>>
>> As a byproduct you have .306 kg distillers grains and solubles (DGS) per 
>> kg
>> maize
>> At 250 g methane/kg DGS this would produce 0.076 kg methane
>> 0.076 kg methane x 11000 kCal/kg = 835 kCal
>>
>> So from 1 kg maize (corn) you get:
>> 1907 kCal as liquid ethanol
>>  835 kCal as methane
>> 2742 kCal/kg maize/2750 kCal/kg maize as methane = 99.7% energy yield
>> compared with digesting maize alone.
>>
>> Note: The "net" energy argument a la Pimental belongs on the
>> bioconversion at listserv.repp.org list.
>>
>> A useful conclusion is that 1/3 of the input maize (corn) to the ethanol
>> process represented by the DGS can be recovered as useful energy via
>> digestion if you're not using it as feed energy to produce food (beef). 
>> The
>> other third of the maize (corn) converts to CO2 which can be fed to the
>> digester to boost methane production.
>>
>> Dr. Karve's sugar consuming Compact Biogas digester is a pretty useful
>> device.
>>
>> Someone mentioned using digester gas to fuel an engine normally powered 
>> by a
>> biomass gasifier when the gasifier is not running. A typical gasifier
>> conversion is 1.4 kg (3 lb) wood per kWh. If we use 1 kg maize as input 
>> to
>> the gasifier and how many kWh can we produce?
>>
>> Tom Miles
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gasification-bounces at listserv.repp.org
>> [mailto:gasification-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of Daniel 
>> Chisholm
>> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 7:40 AM
>> To: Peter Singfield
>> Cc: gasification at listserv.repp.org
>> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Got you calculators handy??
>>
>> On Thu, 2007-22-03 at 20:40 -0600, Peter Singfield wrote:
>>
>>> Maize flower = ground corn
>>>
>>> Extracted from this url:
>>>
>>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/en/compactbiogas
>>>
>>
>>
>>> "Maize flour is an excellent feedstock for a biogas digester. One would
>>>
>> get
>>
>>> about 250 g of methane from 1 kg of maize flour. Methane would have a
>>> calorific value of about 11000kCal/kg. So the 250 g would have about 
>>> 2750
>>> kilocalories"
>>>
>>
>> Producing 250g of methane from 1000g of carbohydrate sounds to me a lot
>> like getting 25 cents for a dollar.
>>
>> (OK, I'll admit that methane has a bit more than twice the energy per kg
>> than a carbohydrate does.  So it's not as bad as I blithely suggest,
>> you're actually getting about 58 cents for your dollar).
>>
>>
>>> What would be the equivelent net energy from 1 kg of corn converted to
>>> ethanol??
>>>
>>
>> Before asking if ethanol is a better way to use corn, I think we should
>> ask whether corn is the right feedstock to use as an energy source.
>>
>> Since this is the gasification list, we know that instead of letting
>> bugs turn it into methane, or enzymes and yeast turn it into alcohol
>> (each process being on the order of 50-60% efficient), we could instead
>> gasify it into CO and H2, at a net conversion efficiency of 70%-90%
>> (depending on the gasifier design and also whether you need a cold,
>> cleaned gas or if hot "dirty" gas is OK).
>>
>> Putting aside for the moment the moral and other nontangible issues that
>> surround the burning of food, and focusing our money-grubbing coldly
>> rational economics selves on the narrowest of dollars-and-cents issues,
>> we see that food is expensive in comparison to energy commodities (be
>> they fossil or renewable).  And this is necessarily going to always be
>> the case, even from a thermodynamics basis (all food is energy, but not
>> all energy is food).  Eaters will always be able to outbid burners.
>>
>> Assuming corn is (approximately) the same energy value as wood, you need
>> about 117 pounds of corn per mmBTU.  Since corn is 56 pounds per bushel
>> according to a quick Google search I just did, we can say (close enough
>> for engineering purposes) that two bushels of corn is about a million
>> BTUs.
>>
>> So if corn is at $4/bushel, that's about $8/mmBTU.  This is a bit
>> cheaper than natural gas today, much more expensive than NG in The Good
>> Old Days, and roughly the same price as (perhaps a wee bit cheaper than)
>> #6 fuel oil today.  Coal is $2-$4/mmBTU, diesel oil or gasoline is about
>> $20/mmBTU, and 10c/kWh electricity is about $30/mmBTU.
>>
>> And $50/wet-tonne(50%mc) hog fuel is $5/mmBTU.  A gasification list
>> member from British Columbia recently declared that he would personally
>> bury in mountain of hog fuel anyone willing to pay $50/tonne for the
>> privilege... ;-)
>>
>>
>> (Isn't it great that simple greed will keep our food supply safe from
>> being burnt?  Count the $/mmBTUs, and the grain will keep... ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>
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> End of Gasification Digest, Vol 9, Issue 47
> *******************************************