[Gasification] firing catalytic

[Peter Singfield]

Hi Toby;

We brushed on the subject of 

"a catalytic unit (made of high temp ceramics)"

a while back -- and I posted a number of urls in regards to wood stove
converters (mounted in the stack) as possible for hot producer gas.

Search the Archives -- try "catalytic" --

>>Steam being added,

Well -- this is what that can all be about -- and maybe some other might
even contribute from their pools of knowledge.

How ever -- many years back I spent a lot of time manually transcribing
text from old manuals into posting to this same list -- specifically on the
original processes -- blue gas -- water gas -- steam reforming -- etc.

All this recorded from existing gas plants that had been successfully
operating in large circumstances for many years. And mostly during the
latter part of the 1800s.

Now -- here are some points that might be of interest.

"Tars" can be steam reformed into synthesis gas

Steam reforming is endothermic

Partial combustion to producer gas is exothermic.

In the original gas plants they used coal -- and the basic process was --

Pyrolizing coal to coal gas -- fuel product 1

Then blowing the hot coke so created with air -- making producer gas -- and
greatly heating the "event"

Then blowing steam through -- making synthesis gas -- which cooled things
down -- 

Once the lower set point was reached -- back to blowing air through - -and
so the process repeated -- 

Coal gas had the greatest BTU value -- followed by synthesis -- and last --
producer.

Producer gas alone was to weak in energy to efficiently deliver.

So they mixed all three together -- cleaned it -- and sent that through the
pipes.

There were many variations of this process ---

Now ---

The very easiest gasifier to build -- the least fussy - -will take various
fuel sizes and shapes -- mixes of varying types of fuels -- and handle all
ranges of moisture -- it the "updraft" gasifier model.

Like the one Tom T is presently producing.

The problem for the gas into IC guys is that these style of gasifiers have
a very tarry product.

So -- you fit in sufficient catalytic units -- 

First you up draft air -- making "dirty" producer gas -- the catalytic
units will trap the tars -- and heat up greatly using the producer gas as
fuel -- the product will be low quality to no quality producer gas 

However -- once the proper temperature is reached -- stop the updraft
"blow" -- and present steam to the catalytic units -- and you will convert
tars to synthesis gas.

This is real out of the box planning -- and might not even be of value.

However -- the hot products coming out the back end of the catalytic units
during the air blow -- will still make excellent heat -- and lot's of it --
which can be directed against a boiler's heat transfer surface -- very
effectively -- ergo -- steam -- then power.

Some of that steam produced -- a very small amount -- will then be used for
the steam blow part of the cycle.

The synthesis gas so produced would be extremely clean -- and could well
run an IC engine -- especially as it is richer in BTU's as well.

How much tars are produced in an updraft air blow cycle??

Plenty to much and that was a major problem -- and still is.

To quote from and article on a producer gas fuel Humphrey pump:

"An interesting feature of the original plant, was the production of
approximately 4 gallons per hour of tar, when the plant was operating,
posing a problem of disposal"

THE GAS GENERATING PLANT 
The gas for the Cobdogla Pumps was originally supplied by two updraft
producers with scrubbing and tar extracting plant and the fuel used being
mallee, box and redgum wood, which was supplied from the extensive wood
stacks situated to the North in 6 ft lengths. 

The wood was cut on site into 2 ft lengths for feeding into the producers.
The May Bros. saw bench used in this operation is part of the machinery
display. 

The installation was designed by Mr. W.F. Saunders A.M.I.E. Australia and
was manufactured by Messrs. May Bros of Gawler, and erected by the
Irrigation Department. It produced 26,500 cubic feet of gas per hour to a
gasometer of 2,2900 c. ft. capacity. The power to operate the various
auxiliary plant for the pumps saw bench and gas plant was supplied by a 30
hp Crossley Gas Engine

****************************

Crossley gas engines were specifically designed for "dirty" producer gas
operation -- another lesson that might well be embraced by the gasifier to
IC engine crowd.

Do not try to convert an existing engine that was not designed to handle
tars into a producer gas IC unit!!

Don't know if the url for the above still works -- this all from my most
deepest old archives -- but here it be:

http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/bp/16/hump.htm

Most everything in that old abandoned plant had rotted out over the years
-- but!!

"The power to operate the various auxiliary plant for the pumps saw bench
and gas plant was supplied by a 30 hp Crossley Gas Engine. This engine is
still in situ and in working condition"

Toby -- the best answers to your questions can be found by doing some
serious research in what was done long before!!

Then from that point -- innovate forwards.

Make something that is proven to work -- and reliably -- then tweak and tune.

Now -- to further your education -- I have appended some info from the Gas
list archives -- if your not interests -- I am quite sure some others will
enjoy the read anyway.

The point is Toby -- most of us are running flat out -- way to busy -- to
guide someone through it all from point A to point Z -- and it sure helps
if the person wanting hints -- has at least spent the time to do some
research first.

And last -- I do believe these old style Lister single Clones I play with
could be turned into micro-sized Crossley Gas Engines -- 

Turning at say -- 350 RPM -- and all clearances well opened up.

>>As my targeted size is about 1000 horsepower input, I really can't afford
too many mistakes.

A word to the wise -- for that kind of power -- check out available thermal
gasifier/steam -- steam turbine -- power plants.

One of our old List members worked for a company that specialized in just
doing that.

http://www.hurstboiler.com/wood.html

Your talking big bucks -- but probably a lot less than you will end up
spending trying to put together an IC based unit -- and one that will fail
in short order besides.

Tom T did plenty of 1000 HP units -- and i note he is not answering any
questions ---

And Toby -- for your info -- he was answering some of those -- to you --
disgusting" posts about "discussions"

That should tell you something --

It tells me people are to polite to say your making a big mistake.

As for all of those that want to bugger off -- for the same reasons you
propose -- 

Well -- this is not "YOUR" dreams made to come true type of list.

You have to learn you must not argue with the true nature of things.

The other problem is -- over all efficiencies of a Hurst boiler / steam
turbine set up will probably exceed what even the best Crosselies ever got.

So what would be the point??

Research more Toby before you start blaming us all as total no good idiots!!

I have given you plenty of leads -- check them out.

Jeff is not planning to make a 1000 HP unit -- and Jeff and I could have
some fun discussing running low RPM derated Listers as micro power plants
-- emulating the old Crossley

That can be done -- would be "fun" -- and might even be "practical"

Greg in Manitoba is the only person on this list who also is trying to
achieve scale of producer gas to IC engine fueling as your suggesting.

Only one problem -- even after years -- much work -- and much costs -- he
aint even close yet!!

Doers or Dreamers -- the final test is always "completion" --

Extracted from below:

"A typical Gas setup would be a giant Crossley single cylinder Gas engine
with a  piston two feet in diameter and running at about 300rpm.and 200
horsepower.  The clearance on the piston would be measured in sixteenths of
an inch, to allow for the build up of tars, which virtually doubled up as
the lubricating oil. (once it got hot that is.)"

You would need five of those -- check out Hurst first is my suggestion!!!

However Toby -- if you have plenty of food for a fast biomethane digester
-- then yes -- you could use conventional gasoline engines with great
success and long term reliability -- and easily get your 1000 HP!!

I still say growing cattail in a swamp and using those root for digestor
fuel would be probably one of the best ways of reaping sustainable energy
per acre of land -- of any -- 

Great for waste water processing to ---

and Toby -- this was another "rant" -- but the kind that really gets
people's minds in gear -- 

If you condemn all "discussions" -- and condemn all "ratns" -- sure the
politically correct crowds will clap their hands -- they always do -- but
you will end up with politically correct reponese -- that contiually will
be refering to WWII gasifiers --- and nothing else.

You got some real information in this rant -- curious if you know how to
utilize it??

And oh -- Tom T can build you a 1000 HP producer gas to IC engine setup --
and if anyone ever succeeded at that endevor since pre 1950 -- it is
probably only him.

To bad he was not one of those clapping to your tunes about shutting down
"discussions" and stopping the rants.

So ask one of those that did support your "views" -- to help you out in
real terms -- eh??

Toby -- learn who is real -- and who is not -- 

Nerds are we -- and nerd are never easy to get along with -- but --
unfortunately -- nerds are the best to mine info from.

Learn who you should be defriending -- right??

With us old Nerds -- patience runs very thin you know.

What do you want -- a bunch of politcally correct people that you like to
drink beer with??

Or getting a 1000 HP biomass power plant up and running??

You decide -- then you let us know -- right??

If you can't handle off-topic subjects that insult your politically correct
drives -- then just delete those messages.

But as many the old timer can tell you -- it is often during those rants
that the real gems turn up.

Another holey grail for IC engine fuel -- steam reforming -- look ma -- no
tars - -at all!!

Peter/Belize




At 08:02 PM 5/2/2007 -0700, Toby Seiler wrote: 
>>>>
Peter,     You were so busy ranting that you have not seen me ask over and
over again about a two stage system where the first stage is firing into a
catalytic unit (made of high temp ceramics), the second is fueled with
water saturated fuel and/or dry fuel and oxygen starved.  Steam being
added, but only as a supplement to the wetted fuel, if required.  Because
of the ongoing/never-ending off topic discussion, I have received almost no
response to reasonable questions about gasification.  True, I don't really
understand many technical stochiometrics or sub-stochiometrics and I don't
care if it's a stove term or gasification term.     I'm an individual, a
very small business, slightly more than hobbyist, but still don't want to
re-invent the wheel, nor blow myself up.  As my targeted size is about 1000
horsepower input, I really can't afford too many mistakes.  If the unit I'm
 making can provide a gas that is flexible to run in an IC engine, then I
know it can be used for a boiler or both.  Then comes the issue of a
digester.  If I can maximize the hydrogen content, is liquid fuel
production a viable option for a portion of the energy recovery.  These are
reasonable questions that have not received answers, but I have instead
forged through page after page of BS hoping to discern a morsel of
gasification wisdom, big or small.       Toby Seiler 

  **************************appended****************

From: "renertech" <renertech at xtra.co.nz>
To: "GAS-L" <gasification at crest.org>
References: <3.0.32.20010212131101.00a05520 at wgs1.btl.net>
<3A885597.CFE97730 at club-internet.fr>
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 22:26:11 -0800

Dear Gas-L'ers
> >  On the 12-2-  someone  wrote,

> >      The logs were approximately 10 to 15 cm (4" to 6") in diameter and
from 1 metre to 1 metre 80 (3' to 6') long. The gasifiers were very tall,
making possible insertion of long logs, and usually mounted just behind the
cab.
> >
> > About those long "log" gasifiers -- you mean they worked with full
length wood??
Gentlemen!
I think we could restore some perspective by re-iterating a  little bit of
colonial history.
In the 1930's  prior to the War, and the subsequent post war moves by the
Oil Majors to price coal and other fuels out of the market by selling
petroleum as zero price energy, virtually for what it cost to process it, it
was pumped out of the ground for nothing,  things were very very different
to today.
In  Australia, Malaya,  New Zealand, and all the African States, Every
outback Gold mine, Sawmill, Tin mine,  Coal mine was either run by Steam, or
Producer gas.
   A typical Gas setup would be a giant Crossley single cylinder Gas engine
with a  piston two feet in diameter and running at about 300rpm.and 200
horsepower.  The clearance on the piston would be measured in sixteenths of
an inch, to allow for the build up of tars, which virtually doubled up as
the lubricating oil. (once it got hot that is.)   Each engine would be fed
by a battery of  five or six down draft gasifiers.  The gasifiers were made
of fire bricks with a fuel hopper  five or six feet in diameter  and ten to
twelve feet deep and a throat at the bottom  of  around ten  inches.  These
units, usually 4 or 5 were in operation at any one time, were fired with
logs each as heavy as one man could carry.  In the case of Australian
hardwood that would be a log  six to eight feet long and  eight to ten
inches in diameter.  The logs would be seasoned for a month or so, as they
were transported into the mine,  but were still green with lots of sap.
Each man staggered up the cat walk with his log and slid it from his
shoulder aiming it down into where ever he saw a hot spot in one of  the
fires, to plug the hole.  Gas cleanup was abysmal.  A water spray gas
cooler/cleaner, and a tar beater.   The beater was a straight radial bladed
centrifugal fan, which assisted the suction on the gasifiers, and slung the
water/tar droplets out to impact on and drip down the outer casing.    As
one can imagine, the pollution level was horrendous,  but they worked and
they worked surprising well for the time,   A bit like  wooden ships and
iron men, those were the Days!!!

Ken Calvert.  Renertech@ xtra.co.nz