[Gasification] Governors and engine control. "carbon pile"

Thu May 17 21:53:55 CDT 2007

Peter, I agree that there is nothing like a bit of extra metal to minimise 
the  drag when an induction motor starts up on a small system.  But  it 
doesn't have to be a flywheel per se.   We used to  run a workshop on one 
12hp Chinese diesel driving a 6kw3ph generator.  We started up the machines 
in sequence begining with the smallest.  The largest machine at the end, was 
a heavy thicknesser with a 5hp motor  which with a DOL start on its own 
would have killed even the lugging power off the Dong Feng.  However, with 
several other motors running on line first, they, and the inertia of the 
machines they were driving, would feed electrical "flywheel" power back into 
the system  in addition to what was coming from the  generator on the 
diesel.   Lots of black smoke and forget about the   2.5-3hz , but she 
started every time.    Ken C.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Singfield" <snkm at btl.net>
To: <gasification at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Governors and engine control. "carbon pile"

>
> Done a few things to -- in real time -- solve most of those problems --  
> and
> all with out going electronics -- or mortgaging the family farm!!
>
> The big old single cylinder Listers are the most terrible offenders. And
> are practically totally useless as the come from the box.
>
> After much hands on experimenting -- I totally solved the terrible Lister
> governor response by a simple redesign of the governor linkage. Now they
> hold well within a 2.5 to 3 Hz range during minimal to maximum power 
> loads.
>
> The E-motor starting surge problem is something else all together 
> different
> - -and was a long and frustrating job to over come -- much experimenting.
>
> At one point I conceived the only solution would be putting an inverter on
> line to supply the extra boost from even a single car battery for motor
> stating surged.
>
> Indeed -- soon after -- the new model digital inverter generators came out
> -- and that is how they do it -- actually -- even better!! But -- let that
> be a subject for another time.
>
> I solved my problems by mounting a heavy flywheel from a Chinese diesel
> directly to the generator shaft.
>
> Simple -- very economical -- and extremely effective -- and not failure
> prone at all.
>
> The strange thin -- I late found an old picture of a lister genset in
> original configuration - -and guess what??
>
> They were -- way back then -- doing exactly that same "trick" -- all their
> gensets having a flywheel on the generator shaft.
>
> Nothing new under the sun -- even the fact that human nature is full of
> forgetfulness.
>
> What I work on right now -- with two units lately completed and being
> tested (and I test extensively) is the highly derated diesel engine set 
> up.
>
> Using a 14.5 HP (1 hour run) or 12.5 (continuous) 195 Chinese single --
> with normal operation being 2200 RPM (14.5 HP) or 2000 RPM (12.5 HP) I now
> run them at 1300 RPM and get a steady -- very reliable -- continuous --  
> max
> output -- of 4 kw.
>
> A one hour run can be at 4.5 kw.
>
> Bottom line??
>
> Invest in more heavy metal rather than electronics -- and you end up with 
> a
> much more reliable system -- that will live incredibly longer!
>
> At 1300 RPM the 195 runs so quietly -- so little vibration you can't even
> believe it is the same engine -- and much better fuel economy.
>
> To pull off these kind of "deratings" -- one must do some changes to the
> governor set up.
>
> In this 195 example -- it never drops more than 3 HZ from no load to full
> load.
>
> As the set up is quite strong as is -- 4 kw on a 5 kw ST -- can easily
> handle surges using the heavy flywheel on the 195 -- to 6 kw.
>
> Ergo -- no flywheel required to start even a 1.5 HP submersible pump --
> where here- - normally -- they are 1/5 HP -- and pumps are the biggest
> surge producers of all - -especially single phase deep well submersibles.
>
> I seriously doubt the "moderns" will be adopting any of these innovations
> -- everyone I have chatted with out of hand declare "It can't be done --  
> go
> electronics - that is the only way"
>
> Totally ignoring that I have systems up and operating doing all the above
> for two years now!!
>
> Typical modern ignorance and arrogance!!
>
> Of course this is all "gold" to anyone that plans to be generating power
> with an IC engine running on producer gas.
>
> But I can hear the "Euros" (at the very least) shouting now -- this is off
> topic -- please unsub me from this list!!
>
> So we better not discuss this totally disagreeable to subject anymore.
>
> My next "adventure" -- soon to start up -- is applying the amazing 6 kw DC
> dynamo with PM to battery charging only -- and using the same derating
> technology -- producing micro power plants to 3 kw inverter sizes.
>
> Ergo my present interest in state of the art batteries.
>
> In my opinion -- the best available at present are the tubular positive
> plate lead acid ones.
>
> Sorry folks -- but we in 3rd world can't afford 60% and less battery 
> charge
> cycle efficiencies!!
>
> Much -- so very much -- is getting accomplished -- and look Ma -- no 
> grants!!
>
> And it will stay that way --
>
> As only under those circumstances can one pursue the good leads rather 
> than
> be forced to conform to a higher power -- namely the organization paying
> out those grants.
>
> I am an old believer in not accepting free rides -- mainly -- because in
> the end -- there is no such thing as a totally free ride!
>
> Peter/Belize
>
> At 08:16 PM 5/17/2007 -0400, gfwhell at aol.com wrote:
>>Peter
>>
>>I know how difficult it can be, to Run a home made,  Engine driven
> alternator, in order to, provide a steady supply, of the desired frequency
> and voltage to a wildly varying load.
>>Any AC motor, coming on load, can have a remarkable effect on the RPM and
> voltage of your Gen-set.
>>In the old days, when a sudden un expected  load came onto the alternator,
> a control device detected it and automatically increased the field voltage
> of the machine, to prevent brown out!  this was a mechanical device called
> a carbon pile regulator. The out put of the alternator passed through the
> "regulators"coils and as the amperage increased with the load, These 
> coils,
> being electro magnets, exerted a force proportionate to the amperage. upon
> a pile of carbon, retained within the regulator. Carbon being electro
> sensitive to pressure would conduct a higher current to the field windings
> of the alternator, thus increasing the output voltage.
>>This state of affairs existed before the event of the solid state
> electronic devices which are now available.
>>I would really like to catch up on this solid state technology as just
> playing with the revs wont cut it.
>>I believe you have more knowledge than most, within this list, relating to
> home made electricity?
>>I would appreciate your views on this subject.
>>
>>Respectfully
>>
>>GF
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: snkm at btl.net
>>To: gasification at listserv.repp.org
>>Sent: Tue, 15 May 2007 9:56 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Gasification] Governors and engine control.
>>
>>
>>At 05:39 PM 5/15/2007 -0700, Mark Ludlow wrote:
>>>Peter,
>>>
>>>If you are running any induction motors with your genset, it's preferable 
>>>to
>>>maintain a fairly constant ratio between volts and Hertz. Of course your
>>>motors will run slower and develop less horsepower when the frequency 
>>>droops
>>>but out of the fast lane everything runs slower, no?
>>>
>>>Mark
>>>
>>
>>So far -- running a little over Hz to hold voltages at -- say -- always
>>above 115 volts -- works very fine.
>>
>>I found everything works more efficiently -- probably due to less line
>>losses (and motor winding losses!!) -- when running 115 to 120 volts.
>>
>>And 62 Hz rather than 60 HZ a total non-event.
>>
>>Others running 60 Hz at 110 -- then dropping to 105 or lower -- and 58 Hz
>>seem to be replacing their refrigerators/freezers a lot more!! And not
>>getting nearly as much ice either!! And burning more fuel for their 
>>sorrier
>>effects to.
>>
>>62 Hz certainly does not bother the fans (they do turn faster and blow
>>better) or the compact fluorescents -- or the TV -- radio or the computer.
>>
>>Course in the US -- it would result in much premature death of filament
>>lights -- so yes -- for you there -- totally out of the question to try 
>>this.
>>
>>
>>Peter/Belize
>>
>>(over hertz-ing and under amp-ing!!)
>>
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