[Gasification] [Bioenergy] Cellulosic Ethanol a dead end

Mon Nov 12 12:11:29 EST 2007

Dave

The lignin is used for heat and power to run the celllulosic ethanol
conversion process, there could be a small amount of surplus power for sale
but largely the lignin is eaten up by the process. From an energy
standpoint, the  feedstock effectively eats about a 1/3rd of itself in the
process of converting the other 2/3rds of the plants energy into a liquid
fuel at a pretty modest efficiency. 

Overall whether its corn ethanol or cellulosic ethanol, Its
thermodynamically a pretty wasteful process.

Roger Samson

  _____  

From: dave andrews [mailto:tyningroad at btinternet.com] 
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 11:53 AM
To: 'Roger Samson'; 'Thomas Reed'; 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and
gasification'; 'Bob Weldon'; 'Scott Weldon'; 'GASIFICATION'; 'bio >>
"BIOENERGY at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG"'
Subject: RE: [Bioenergy] Cellulosic Ethanol a dead end

It is possible to run a diesel engine on powdered wood
..the first diesel
ran on powdered coal – would get away from conversion losses potentially.

Or indeed Stirling engines can run on wood pellets

Roger – of what use is the residue from cellulosic ethanol production?
Cattle feed? Thermal power station fuel?

Dave Andrews

  _____  

From: bioenergy-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:bioenergy-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of Roger Samson
Sent: 12 November 2007 15:47
To: 'Thomas Reed'; 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'; 'Bob
Weldon'; 'Scott Weldon'; 'GASIFICATION'; 'bio >>
"BIOENERGY at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG"'
Subject: Re: [Bioenergy] Cellulosic Ethanol a dead end

Tom 

With current status of the technology of whats published in the literature
you get about 80 gallons per tonne. It works out to a 37% conversion
effeciency. In metric it about 330 litres per tonne, with a lower heating
value of ethanol at 0.021 GJ/litre you get about 6.9 GJ/tonne of liquid fuel
from 18.5 GJ of energy in the biomass.  The cellulsoic ethanol plants cost
about 300-350 million for an 800,000 ton per year plant. Its the combination
of high plant capital costs and low energy recovery from feedstocks which
seems to be the barriers to commercialization. Despite enormous subisides
for ethanol and cellulsoic ethanol capital offset costs that are
significant, it doesn't seem to be going commercial. its a bit like solar
thermal electric, nice advanced technology but the plants are too material
intensive and difficult to operate for the energy you get out of them.  

Now the other option is to take an approach of sophisitication in
simplicity. Recognize that biomass is a low quality energy form and work
with it to improve its quality without destroying energy in the biomass or
create a process that has a lot of parasitic energy requirements.   

With pellets you get essentially 100% recovery of the energy be keeping it
in a solid form and the plants cost about 3-10 million depending on how big
you want them.. Much better to use pellets to replace natural gas and
heating oil than cellulosic ethanol to replace gasoline as an energy
security or GHG mitigation strategy for the US. 

There needs to be parity in the way that incentives are applied to the
bioenergy sector to enable the sector to develop efficiently.  There is no
bioenergy or energy security policy on the US.  There is an ethanol policy
thats not working for either US energy security or GHG abatement. Thes best
thing the US government could forget about picking technology winners and
instead create thoughtful policy instruments that could actually bring about
US energy security and GHG abatement. 

Its called results based management, its the antithesis of lobbyists
convincing governments to pick their technology as the winner. The US end
goal has become technology development instead of managing for the desired
outcomes of energy security and greenhouse gas abatement. Thats why the U.S
is going nowhere fast in acheiving any serious options to conventional
energy from bioenergy.  Pity this is happening while the price of oil hits
an all time high and there is no effective response.

regards

Roger Samson

  _____  

From: bioenergy-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:bioenergy-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Reed
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 8:49 AM
To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification;
STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG; Bob Weldon; Scott Weldon; GASIFICATION; bio >>
"BIOENERGY at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG"
Subject: [Bioenergy] Cellulosic Ethanol a dead end

Dear All:

If you think converting the 70% starch in corn into sugar and then into
ethanol is inefficient, (MAYBE 35% more energy out than in) just try
stripping the lignin out of cellulosic materials as a hurdle.  Dozens of
companies (since the first in 1918) have claimed to have the process "now
commercial", sold stock, then quietly tiptoed away.  Mother Nature designed
starch to be converted to sugar.  She designed cellulose NOT to be converted
into sugar.  Given enough subsidies it can be commercial today, but so could
many other processes with higher payback.  

TOM REED        BEF

Benjamin Domingo Bof wrote: 

Friends, two years ago when we go to Simposium in São Paulo, Brazil;
defending ethanol from sugar cane we write an matter presented to IAPA
(Inter American Press Assn) "Energia limpia o un futuro incierto" defending
bagasse as raw material for cellulosic ethanol. Now we propose in Bella
Vista, Corrientes province in Argentine to Major Mario Haberle use poplar
and willows to produce cell ethanol. More than fifty years in these county
was operated and wood ethanol pant ia a place named "Destino". 
Regards; Benjamin

Don  <mailto:daschade at telus.net> <daschade at telus.net> escribió: FOLKS,

  I CAN ACROSS THIS ARTICLE ON THE INTERNET AND WANTED TO SHARE IT.
   IT SEEMS LIKE USING "TREES" WILL REDUCE THE PRESSURE ON FOOD SUPPLIES 
FROM USING CORN
    AND OTHER GRAINS.  YOU COMMENTS ON THIS NEW PROCESS ARE INVITED.  IT 
IS NOT CLEAR TO ME
    IF THEY ARE GASIFYING OR USING A SLURRY AS WITH CORN TO ETHANOL?  
THANKS!

    DON  

The New New Fuel

   Khosla Ventures-backed Range Fuels to turn wood chips into ethanol.

By Kerry A. Dolan

http://www.forbes.com/2007/11/03/energy-khosla-fuels-tech-cz_kd_1105fuels.ht
ml?partner=email

Related Links:
Biofuels Bridge Conoco and ADM

http://www.forbes.com/markets/2007/09/27/conoco-phillips-closer-markets-equi
ty-cx_cg_0927markets39.html?partner=email

Paul Maidment on Energy 2017

http://www.forbes.com/technology/2007/10/13/paul-maidment-2017-tech-future07
.html?partner=email

Amber Waves Of Green

http://www.forbes.com/investingideas/2007/07/26/ethanol-biomass-corn-pf-ii-i
n_mm_0726energyintelligence_inl.html?partner=email

_______________________________________________
Gasification mailing list
Gasification at listserv.repp.org
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_listserv.repp.org
http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org
http://info.bioenergylists.org

---------------------------------

Los referentes más importantes en compra/venta de autos se juntaron:
Demotores y Yahoo!.Ahora comprar o vender tu auto es más fácil. 
 Visitá http://ar.autos.yahoo.com/
_______________________________________________
Gasification mailing list
Gasification at listserv.repp.org
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_listserv.repp.org
http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org
http://info.bioenergylists.org

-- 
ÐÏà¡±á