[Gasification] Biogas from Pasture and second gen and GTL

Sat Apr 12 20:25:18 CDT 2008

Mark Says--
"Maybe I'm confused also, but fermentation does not necessarily imply 
methane
production. It depends on the microbe".

              I have the feeling that if this talk about fermentation was 
switched over to the Discussion Group on Digestion,- I would be accused of 
trying to teach my Grandmother!!.  Making methane out of  biomass is no 
longer seen to be simple.  As far as is known at present  the Digestion 
pathway has four or more steps and you can opt out of or into the pathaway 
at any of these points.  1/. Hydrolysis breaks down sugars and some polymers 
by introducing water molecules into the middle of things.  Cracking the 
starch polymer into sugars and then some of those sugars into Alcohols is 
the  hydrolysis step.   Step 2/. is the Acidogenesis  which takes step one a 
stage further into organic acids.  And ethanol into vinegar  or lactates 
into  lactic acid is typical.  Step 3/. is acetogenesis, where longer chain 
fatty acids, such as lactic acid, get progressively reduced down to acetic 
acid, or acetates, and gives off a molecule of carbon dioxide and hydrogen 
at each step.  That is what is called 'Dark Hydrogen' generated by 
fermentation rather than  oxidation/reduction pathways.    Its  only Step 
4/., Methanogenesis  that involves those specific bacteria  and they can 
pretty much only work on acetate salts to make methane.
So whether you want a sugar, an alcohol, a fatty acid or  methane, you opt 
in or out of the farmentation pathway as it suits your requirements.
   And a similar sort of thing happens with Gasification.   Complex biomass 
goes through a pathway that finally ends up with a mixture of  carbon 
monoxide and hydrogen. If its done with air the nitrogen is left in and its 
called Producer gas.  If the nitrogen is kept out
its called Synthesis gas, which is what the catalytic crackers produce from 
the  petroleum oil field wastes and then another process Thermally Reforms 
it back into synthetic petrol, diesel and all the kinds of molecules that we 
value.   They can do that with oilfield methane too!  So, as small scale DIY 
types we are only operating on a section of each of these two major 
pathways.    If it didn't cost so much to gather enough biomass together to 
work a  commercial size refinery, we wouldn't need to worry about  all this. 
We could just continue to  switch on the electric power and  run our cars 
for our own personal convienience.  And all our rubbish could get trucked to 
the local refinery, along with the biomass, and converted into synthesis gas 
as well.  You don't get dioxins in synthesis gas!  When will we do away with 
'Economy of Scale', and learn to do it all within our own communities? 
Ken C.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Ludlow" <mark at ludlow.com>
To: "'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'" 
<gasification at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 8:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Biogas from Pasture and second gen and GTL

Maybe I'm confused also, but fermentation does not necessarily imply methane
production. It depends on the microbe. Methanogenic (familiar in ruminants)
bacteria produce CH4 and CO2; other fermentations (with Lactobacillus),
produce lactic acid; still other breakdowns produce ammonia if there are
amines such as proteins (i.e. chlorophylls) present.

There's no single cascade from living matter to simple molecules.

Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: gasification-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:gasification-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of Rolf Uhle
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 12:48 PM
To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Biogas from Pasture and second gen and GTL

Now I´m confused:
What are we talking about, combustion (cigar, smoldering) or fermentation (
biogas) ?
Rolf

>
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 08:51:27 -0500 (CDT)
> Von: katahdinenergyworks at verizon.net
> An: 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'
> <gasification at listserv.repp.org>, Winfried Rijssenbeek
> <w.rijssenbeek at rrenergy.nl>
> Betreff: Re: [Gasification] Biogas from Pasture and second gen and GTL
>
>             Maine is covered with perhaps hundreds of thousands of acres
> of fallow 'hayfield', either cut for hay; or cut to keep it from
> returning into forest; or in a semi forest stage, i.e. brush.
>
> As a result Maine has has thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of large
> hay 'rolls' decomposing in fields, unsold. There are even more wrapped in
> plastic waiting to be sold.
>
> One reaction is a large biomass boiler that consumes an entire haybale
> over the course of a week...kinda burns like a cigar from one end to the
> other!
>
> As we all know the BTU content of Hay is very large.
>
> I've put together an integrated system for operating an integrated solid
> & liquid waste digester, that uses the spent effluent as a fertilizer on
> these hay fields; in essence creating a renewable resource.
>
> Plastic bailing solves the storage problem.
>
> We're lucky to have Navy base in the final stages of closing and the
> potential for creating this kind of trash to energy cycle using
> hay(grasses, biomass) in the loop.
>
> ..just tossing out the concept...
>
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