[Gasification] Aviation'sroleinglobalwarming...9/11 aftermathprovestheoriesonH20incontrailsindramatic fashion.

Greg and April gregandapril at earthlink.net
Thu Mar 27 09:56:14 CDT 2008 

Here in the US, I think some of the issue, is prestige factor - each city 
above a certain size appears to think that it needs an airport.

Greg H.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Ludlow" <mark at ludlow.com>
To: "'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'" 
<gasification at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 21:37
Subject: Re: [Gasification]Aviation'sroleinglobalwarming...9/11 
aftermathprovestheoriesonH20incontrailsindramatic fashion.


> Well, at least it makes a lot of sense for Japan.
>
> Mark
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gasification-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> [mailto:gasification-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of Greg and 
> April
> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 5:25 PM
> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Aviation'sroleinglobalwarming...9/11
> aftermathprovestheoriesonH20incontrailsindramatic fashion.
>
> I have see what they are doing, and it makes allot of sense - that's why I
> brought it up.
>
>
> Greg H.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Marc Smith" <m.smith at kleanindustries.com>
> To: "'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'"
> <gasification at listserv.repp.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 12:23
> Subject: Re: [Gasification]Aviation'sroleinglobalwarming...9/11
> aftermathprovestheoriesonH20incontrailsindramatic fashion.
>
>
>> Greg,
>>
>> http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2019.html
>>
>> Your on the right track - look at Japan and their infrastructure - should
>> answer a few questions?
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gasification-bounces at listserv.repp.org
>> [mailto:gasification-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of Greg and
>> April
>> Sent: March 23, 2008 9:18 AM
>> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
>> Subject: Re: [Gasification]Aviation'sroleinglobalwarming...9/11
>> aftermathprovestheoriesonH20incontrailsin dramatic fashion.
>>
>> All I can tell you is from personal experience is that when I was in the
>> army, I personally watched them fuel 5-6 hummers ( diesel engines ),
>> before
>> fueling a dozen M1 Abrams, which has a jet turbine for an engine, and 
>> upon
>> asking, was told that the fuel was diesel.
>>
>> I still find it interesting that while JP4 ( Jet B ) and JP8 ( Jet A )
>> have
>> kero, the kero makes up perhaps only half the mix.
>>
>> A more energy dense fuel, could take care of the price to climb into the
>> stratosphere, OTOH, allot of aircraft are wasting fuel by making short
>> hops
>> of less than 100 miles - they barley get to cruising altitude and they 
>> are
>> descending to land.    In this case perhaps a ground based transport like
>> high speed train linking cities that close to one major airport, is the
>> better solution.
>>
>> I think that current engine tech and fuel tech have taken us to about the
>> best possible level of efficiency, and we are going to have to increase
>> the
>> fuel density to go much further - especially as far as aircraft are
>> concerned.
>>
>> Just remember, that as far as fuel efficiency is concerned ( passenger
>> miles ), flying is the most inefficient, and taking the train, is better
>> than even the bus.
>>
>>
>> On a semi related side note, I have been playing around with fuel mixes
>> with
>>
>> my diesel Land Cruiser, and have used up to 50% kero, 45% veggie oil (
>> coconut ) and 5% isopropanol and it has dropped my soot levels down to
>> single digits, from the high 20's low 30's.
>>
>>
>> Greg H.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Ken Basterfield" <ken at basterfield.com>
>> To: "'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'"
>> <gasification at listserv.repp.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 5:31
>> Subject: Re: [Gasification]Aviation'sroleinglobalwarming...9/11
>> aftermathproves theoriesonH20incontrailsin dramatic fashion.
>>
>>
>>> Hello Greg,
>>> We don't get much call for military jet fuel, merely AvTur being sold on
>>> our
>>> airfields.
>>>
>>> I looked up the NATO definitions which include civilian use jet fuels,
>>> there
>>> is no reference to Diesel based fuels:
>>>
>>> http://www.nato.int/docu/logi-en/1997/lo-15a.htm
>>>
>>> Extract below.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The notes at the bottom give the rated min. temperatures for the fuel.
>>>
>>> Depends where it is and at what time of year but your 80,000 ft high
>>> military jet could be in warmer temps, and is possibly not the worst 
>>> case
>>> as
>>> I think you implied. The ozonosphere shows a positive lapse rate, i.e
>>> increasing temp with altitude.
>>>
>>> Since the troposhere is where the weather is, i.e where most of the 
>>> water
>>> is, then jet activity at these altitutes will affect cloud formation.
>>> Making jets fly higher into the stratosphere might be the solution to
>>> aircraft induced cloud cover. The base of the stratosphere can be
>>> anywhere
>>> between about 20,000ft and 60,000ft.  There is a price of course- in the
>>> extra fuel required for the added climb.
>>>
>>> The F40 grade of wide cut is now superceded by F34
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> NATO
>>> Logistics
>>> Handbook
>>> October 1997
>>> Chapter 15: Fuels, Oils, Lubricants and
>>> Petroleum Handling Equipment
>>> Annex A
>>> Aide Memoire on Fuels in NATO
>>>
>>>
>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ----
>>>
>>> AVIATION FUELS
>>> NATO CODE
>>>
>>> F-18
>>> is an aviation gasoline (low lead) in limited use by certain NATO
>>> nations.
>>> Also known as AVGAS 100LL.
>>> F-34
>>> is a military kerosene type aviation turbine fuel with Fuel System Icing
>>> Inhibitor (FSII) (NOTE 1) used by land based military gas turbine 
>>> engined
>>> aircraft in all NATO countries. (NOTE 2) Also known as JP-8 or
>>> AVTUR/FSII.
>>> JET A-1 or AVTUR + Additives (NOTE 3) = JP-8 or AVTUR/FSII.
>>> F-35
>>> is a military kerosene type aviation turbine fuel equivalent to that 
>>> used
>>> by
>>> most civil operators of gas turbine engined aircraft. Also known as JET
>>> A-1
>>> or AVTUR.
>>> JET A-1 or AVTUR; therefore F-34 = F-35 + Additives.
>>> F-40
>>> is a military wide cut type aviation turbine fuel with FSII used by land
>>> based military gas turbine engined aircraft (NOTE 2). Also known as JP-4
>>> or
>>> AVTAG/FSII. Within NATO it is an emergency substitute for F-34/F-35.
>>> F-44
>>> is a military high flash point kerosene type aviation turbine fuel with
>>> FSII
>>> used by ship borne military gas turbine engine aircraft in most NATO
>>> countries. Also known as JP-5 or AVCAT/FSII JET A and JET B (See NOTES 4
>>> and
>>> 5)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> NOTES:
>>>
>>>
>>> FSII NATO Code S-1745. Additive to aviation turbine fuels as system 
>>> icing
>>> inhibitor.
>>> Until 1986, F-40 was used by land based gas turbine engined aircraft in
>>> all
>>> NATO countries except France and the United Kingdom which had converted
>>> to
>>> F-34 some 15 years earlier. Following a decision by NATO Defence
>>> Ministers
>>> all nations except Turkey switched from F-40 to F-34. The conversion
>>> (known
>>> as Stage 1 of the Single Fuel Concept) was completed in 1988. Turkey
>>> completed its conversion from F-40 to F-34 in 1996.
>>> The term "additives" used in this Aide Memoire can include FSII 
>>> corrosion
>>> inhibitor/lubricity improver additive and static-dissipator additive
>>> (SDA).
>>> JET A is a civil grade of kerosene type aviation turbine fuel only
>>> supplied
>>> for operations in the United States. It has a freezing point of -40oC 
>>> max
>>> which differs from JET A-1 (-47oC).
>>> JET B is a civil grade of wide cut type aviation turbine fuel which has 
>>> a
>>> different freezing point (-50oC) from F-40 (-58oC) and does not normally
>>> contain FSII.
>>> For further details about these fuels, see Annex C to STANAG 1135.
>>>
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