[Greenbuilding] [BULK] Totally turned off by high pricesforgreen products

Sun Dec 17 08:22:50 CST 2006

... couldn't agree more, Mary.

Even the embodied energy calculations don't tell the whole story, but that's
so far out of the realm of consideration, I don't bring it up that much.

It's not even the embodied energy of the materials going in and out, even.
If a bit more energy during manufacturing could ensure that the material
could make it through a deconstruction effort and be reused again ... then
it's worth it.  We would then need to assume that the team taking the
building apart (aside from their decision to do that) would appropriate
value the materials involved, handle them in a way that preserves that
value, and be able to find the next user.  That's a lot of 'ifs'.

Hard to be a Goat, sometimes.

Amy Bauman
greenGoat
www.greengoat.org

-----Original Message-----
From: greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org]On Behalf Of Mary Bull -
Greenwood Earth Alliance
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 9:15 AM
To: Lawrence Lile; greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] [BULK] Totally turned off by high
pricesforgreen products

Lawrence and Greenbuilders,

Here in SF that's the predominant attitude: Energy-efficient = Green. For
example, the City torn down the old de Young museum (made of clay) and put
up a new one at least 10 times bigger, covered with several tons of
decorative copper (and so on), but because it is energy efficient, they call
it green; similarly, they are tearing down the Academy of Sciences, but the
new building will have a living roof and be energy efficient, so it's
"green."

I have long felt that Green builders who use only energy efficiency as their
criterion are not really green. I think that Green builders need to include
Minimal (Zero) Resource Extraction, along with energy efficiency into your
green criteria: I'd love to see Zero Energy/Zero Resource Extraction
construction! And, of course, in the energy-efficiency part of the equation,
embodied energy must also be taken into account, which is closely wedded to
resource extraction. Then you would really be green!

I will be sending an email announcing the launch of the FSC Watch web site
presently.

Cheers,

Mary

Mary Bull, Co-director
Greenwood Earth Alliance, Save the Redwoods - Boycott the Gap Campaign
252 Frederick, San Francisco, CA 94117 http://www.gapsucks.org
Chalice Farm and Sustainable Living Center, 748 Montgomery Rd, Sebastopol CA
95472
415-731-7924 - 415-509-1188 chalicenew at earthlink.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Lile" <LLile at projsolco.com>
To: <greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 5:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] [BULK] Totally turned off by high prices
forgreen products

> Expensive Green building products are easy to find, but all Green building
products are not expensive.
>
> One thing that is important to know:  Green building is not a
black-and-white issue, and there may be products that have some Green
characteristics that you can showcase, while ignoring others.  I would not
advise trying to build something that is absolutely perfectly Green, because
you'll find (as you already have) that it is nearly impossible.  The only
perfectly Green bathroom is a virgin forest, and that wouldn't be much fun
in the winter, nor meet any local sewer regulations.  TP is kinda rough,
too.
>
> In my mind, the most important Green characteristics are those that affect
energy use.  These are hard to showcase because they are not flashy -
Cellulose insulation, for instance, is really very dull and looks a lot like
the inside of a vacuum cleaner bag.  A super low-flush toilet looks about
like a regular one.  Demand water heaters are just an ugly metal box.
Radiant floors are invisible, looking just like a regular floor.  But try
this - sell someone on having an energy efficient water heater that provides
endless hot water, and then they step out on a floor that isn't cold!
>
> If I were looking for tile, the Green characteristics I might highlight
would simply be local production - the closest tile plant would be the one
I'd pay attention to first.  If the price were $11 a foot, I'd keep looking.
>
> If you can't find cabinets that are totally Green, then try to find some
made without formadlehyde glues, or try to find some made nearby out of
actual wood instead of particle board.  If they won't do, then settle for
cabinets made out of real wood from farther away.  These certainly won't be
the cheapest cabinets, but I'm sure someone makes them for less than $2300.
>
> An old joke goes like this: there are five stages to a construction
project:  Enthusiasm, Despair, Search for the Guilty, Blaming of the
Innocent, and finally Awards and Congratulations for Anyone who was Not
Involved.  The despair phase seems to kick in right after the sticker shock.
Nobody selling $2300 bathroom vanities has a real hope of surviving as a
business, quite likely there is a conventional cabinetmaker who has quietly
converted their process to handle zero-formaldehyde glues, and is eager to
do business with you.
>
> --Lawrence Lile
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org on behalf of Geri Spieler
> Sent: Sun 12/17/2006 1:50 AM
> To: greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org
> Subject: [BULK] [Greenbuilding] Totally turned off by high prices for
green products
>
>
>
> I have been trying to design a green bathroom for our showroom. We have a
> very well respected bathroom remodeling company in Northern California.
>
> We have been in business for 30 years, are very conscientious about the
> products we use, we recycle all tear out materials and always work hard to
> use wall, tile and floor products that do not off-gas.
>
> In my search to design a green display bathroom I have run into insanely
> expensive products and materials.
>
> Frankly, I don't think I'll be able to sell it. After searching for a
decent
> bathroom vanity cabinet, 60" wide and 22" deep, the cheapest I came up
with
> was a $2300.00 cabinet---wholesale to us.
>
> Tile for $11 a square foot (and it isn't even pretty), vanity slab tops
for
> $3,000.00.
>
> Who can afford this? How are we supposed to support green building when
the
> price is so ridiculously high?
>
> If anyone out there has vendors that build bathroom cabinets, floor tile
and
> tops that are reasonable, I'd love to hear from you. At this point I'm
about
> to abandon my plan to have a totally green bathroom display.
>
> Geri
> geri at thebathroominc.com
>
> --
> Geri
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