[Greenbuilding] Totally turned off by high pricesforgreen products

Sun Dec 17 08:48:53 CST 2006

Hey Green Goat and Greenbuilders!

A couple of things here:

First, re embodied energy, and steel versus forest wood. A researcher whom I
met through this list and with whom I attended the Greenbuilding conference
this past fall in SF made a very convincing argument that using steel
instead of wood was far better for global warming--the carbon sequestering
properties of living trees far outshines the carbon-release that goes into
steel production. Does anyone care to comment?

On becoming a goat: People are doing that: There are more and more salvagers
and salvage yards! At the Greenbuilding Conference in SF, several salvage
yards had booths. I am not using any new forest products in the strawbale
cottage we're building! It still takes a little more time and a little more
money, but mostly, it just takes will!

Mary

Mary Bull, Co-director
Greenwood Earth Alliance, Save the Redwoods - Boycott the Gap Campaign
252 Frederick, San Francisco, CA 94117 http://www.gapsucks.org
Chalice Farm and Sustainable Living Center, 748 Montgomery Rd, Sebastopol CA
95472
415-731-7924 - 415-509-1188 chalicenew at earthlink.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Amy Bauman" <abauman at greengoat.org>
To: "'Mary Bull - Greenwood Earth Alliance'" <chalicenew at earthlink.net>;
"'Lawrence Lile'" <LLile at projsolco.com>; <greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 6:22 AM
Subject: RE: [Greenbuilding] [BULK] Totally turned off by high
pricesforgreen products

> ... couldn't agree more, Mary.
>
> Even the embodied energy calculations don't tell the whole story, but
that's
> so far out of the realm of consideration, I don't bring it up that much.
>
> It's not even the embodied energy of the materials going in and out, even.
> If a bit more energy during manufacturing could ensure that the material
> could make it through a deconstruction effort and be reused again ... then
> it's worth it.  We would then need to assume that the team taking the
> building apart (aside from their decision to do that) would appropriate
> value the materials involved, handle them in a way that preserves that
> value, and be able to find the next user.  That's a lot of 'ifs'.
>
> Hard to be a Goat, sometimes.
>
> Amy Bauman
> greenGoat
> www.greengoat.org
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org]On Behalf Of Mary Bull -
> Greenwood Earth Alliance
> Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 9:15 AM
> To: Lawrence Lile; greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] [BULK] Totally turned off by high
> pricesforgreen products
>
>
> Lawrence and Greenbuilders,
>
> Here in SF that's the predominant attitude: Energy-efficient = Green. For
> example, the City torn down the old de Young museum (made of clay) and put
> up a new one at least 10 times bigger, covered with several tons of
> decorative copper (and so on), but because it is energy efficient, they
call
> it green; similarly, they are tearing down the Academy of Sciences, but
the
> new building will have a living roof and be energy efficient, so it's
> "green."
>
> I have long felt that Green builders who use only energy efficiency as
their
> criterion are not really green. I think that Green builders need to
include
> Minimal (Zero) Resource Extraction, along with energy efficiency into your
> green criteria: I'd love to see Zero Energy/Zero Resource Extraction
> construction! And, of course, in the energy-efficiency part of the
equation,
> embodied energy must also be taken into account, which is closely wedded
to
> resource extraction. Then you would really be green!
>
> I will be sending an email announcing the launch of the FSC Watch web site
> presently.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mary
>
> Mary Bull, Co-director
> Greenwood Earth Alliance, Save the Redwoods - Boycott the Gap Campaign
> 252 Frederick, San Francisco, CA 94117 http://www.gapsucks.org
> Chalice Farm and Sustainable Living Center, 748 Montgomery Rd, Sebastopol
CA
> 95472
> 415-731-7924 - 415-509-1188 chalicenew at earthlink.net
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lawrence Lile" <LLile at projsolco.com>
> To: <greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>
> Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 5:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] [BULK] Totally turned off by high prices
> forgreen products
>
>
> > Expensive Green building products are easy to find, but all Green
building
> products are not expensive.
> >
> > One thing that is important to know:  Green building is not a
> black-and-white issue, and there may be products that have some Green
> characteristics that you can showcase, while ignoring others.  I would not
> advise trying to build something that is absolutely perfectly Green,
because
> you'll find (as you already have) that it is nearly impossible.  The only
> perfectly Green bathroom is a virgin forest, and that wouldn't be much fun
> in the winter, nor meet any local sewer regulations.  TP is kinda rough,
> too.
> >
> > In my mind, the most important Green characteristics are those that
affect
> energy use.  These are hard to showcase because they are not flashy -
> Cellulose insulation, for instance, is really very dull and looks a lot
like
> the inside of a vacuum cleaner bag.  A super low-flush toilet looks about
> like a regular one.  Demand water heaters are just an ugly metal box.
> Radiant floors are invisible, looking just like a regular floor.  But try
> this - sell someone on having an energy efficient water heater that
provides
> endless hot water, and then they step out on a floor that isn't cold!
> >
> > If I were looking for tile, the Green characteristics I might highlight
> would simply be local production - the closest tile plant would be the one
> I'd pay attention to first.  If the price were $11 a foot, I'd keep
looking.
> >
> > If you can't find cabinets that are totally Green, then try to find some
> made without formadlehyde glues, or try to find some made nearby out of
> actual wood instead of particle board.  If they won't do, then settle for
> cabinets made out of real wood from farther away.  These certainly won't
be
> the cheapest cabinets, but I'm sure someone makes them for less than
$2300.
> >
> > An old joke goes like this: there are five stages to a construction
> project:  Enthusiasm, Despair, Search for the Guilty, Blaming of the
> Innocent, and finally Awards and Congratulations for Anyone who was Not
> Involved.  The despair phase seems to kick in right after the sticker
shock.
> Nobody selling $2300 bathroom vanities has a real hope of surviving as a
> business, quite likely there is a conventional cabinetmaker who has
quietly
> converted their process to handle zero-formaldehyde glues, and is eager to
> do business with you.
> >
> > --Lawrence Lile
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org on behalf of Geri Spieler
> > Sent: Sun 12/17/2006 1:50 AM
> > To: greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org
> > Subject: [BULK] [Greenbuilding] Totally turned off by high prices for
> green products
> >
> >
> >
> > I have been trying to design a green bathroom for our showroom. We have
a
> > very well respected bathroom remodeling company in Northern California.
> >
> > We have been in business for 30 years, are very conscientious about the
> > products we use, we recycle all tear out materials and always work hard
to
> > use wall, tile and floor products that do not off-gas.
> >
> > In my search to design a green display bathroom I have run into insanely
> > expensive products and materials.
> >
> > Frankly, I don't think I'll be able to sell it. After searching for a
> decent
> > bathroom vanity cabinet, 60" wide and 22" deep, the cheapest I came up
> with
> > was a $2300.00 cabinet---wholesale to us.
> >
> > Tile for $11 a square foot (and it isn't even pretty), vanity slab tops
> for
> > $3,000.00.
> >
> > Who can afford this? How are we supposed to support green building when
> the
> > price is so ridiculously high?
> >
> > If anyone out there has vendors that build bathroom cabinets, floor tile
> and
> > tops that are reasonable, I'd love to hear from you. At this point I'm
> about
> > to abandon my plan to have a totally green bathroom display.
> >
> > Geri
> > geri at thebathroominc.com
> >
> > --
> > Geri
> > _______________________________________________
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>
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>       publisher of Environmental Building News and GreenSpec(r)
> Hosted and archived by REPP / CREST http://www.crest.org