[Greenbuilding] [BULK] Re: Totally turned off by high pricesfor green products

Tue Dec 19 12:21:39 CST 2006

"i'd still rather spend 1% of my budget on something that 
actually makes a bldg greener (e.g. solar hot water, daylighting,
passive 
solar, insulation more airtightness, etc.) than on a piece of paper or
study 
or calc that "proves" i did it."

That's a good argument against LEED certification, which many people
buy. 

One of the sticking points with LEED is, it requires mandatory "Building
Commissioning", a concept most people don't understand.  Buidling
commissioning is often seen as one of the extra expenses that don't gain
anything - a misconception.  

I wish they had called it "Building Adjusting".  The idea is to adjust
and calibrate mechanical systems so that they work optimally, typically
saving 5% to 15% of a building's energy budget.  The 1% additional fees
figure I quoted earlier for the UU Church of Houston included the
"extra" cost for building commissioning, which they did not understand
was saving them money, placing it squarely in your category of good
investments.  

Lawrence Lile, P.E., LEED AP

-----Original Message-----
From: Drew A. Gillett P.E. [mailto:deaneg at hotmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 10:46 AM
To: Lawrence Lile; William Updike; greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] [BULK] Re: Totally turned off by high
pricesfor green products

the arguments for certification to assure that you got what you paid for

notwithstanding, i'd still rather spend 1% of my budget on something
that 
actually makes a bldg greener (e.g. solar hot water, daylighting,
passive 
solar, insulation more airtightness, etc.) than on a piece of paper or
study 
or calc that "proves" i did it.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lawrence Lile" <LLile at projsolco.com>
To: "William Updike" <updikew at yahoo.com>;
<greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] [BULK] Re: Totally turned off by high
pricesfor 
green products

> William Wrote: It seems to me that we should be very careful in
> assuming that green building necessarily has to cost
> more or that it can't be used for affordable housing.
>
>
> According to an Architect friend of mine, and some asking around I've
> done, it is possible to pick any reasonable price per square foot for
a
> commercial building and build a comparable Leed certified building of
> the same square footage for the same price.  That being said, the
> systems and materials inside will be different, and different
approaches
> would have to be used on each, and levels beyond "Certified" (gold,
> platimum) will definitely cost more.  It is difficult to "tack on"
Green
> building principles and keep the cost the same, but not impossible:
The
> First Unitarian Church of Houston built a major addition, decided to
get
> it LEED certified at the last minute, and claims that the additional
> paperwork and commissioning required for LEED certified level cost
less
> than one percent.  (they had planned an efficient, well designed
> building to start with)
>
>
>
> Lawrence Lile, P.E., LEED AP
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of William
> Updike
> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 12:02 PM
> To: greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org
> Subject: [BULK] Re: [Greenbuilding] Totally turned off by high prices
> for green products
> Importance: Low
>
> It seems to me that we should be very careful in
> assuming that green building necessarily has to cost
> more or that it can't be used for affordable housing.
> In fact, this study by New Ecology questions that
> claim:
>
> http://www.newecology.org/cb%20description.htm
>
> Also, in my backyard (Washington, DC) we have a
> wonderful organization called Green Home that is
> trying to bring green building to the affordable
> housing world.  They have been very successful along
> these lines:
>
> http://greenhome.org/
>
> Of course, these are not zero-energy homes nor
> perfectly "green."  But it is a start.  The fact is
> that some level of environmental/green building does
> not necessarily have to cost more.  It sometimes can
> actually cost less (downsized HVAC due to better
> envelope, etc.).  And, when you factor in the other
> externalities, both environmental and human health,
> green building turns out to be a phenomenal deal.
>
> I'm just concerned that we don't perpetuate the public
> perception that green building is cost-prohibitive and
> only for rich people.  Just my .02.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Bill Updike
>
> --- David Seth Melchert <dmelchert at earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Geri, another angle on this thread has to do with
>> the  exclusive and
>> elite nature of "green" building in general. As all
>> of us on this list
>> know, there are a lot of hoops to jump through,
>> pushing against the
>> grain, swimming upstream...choose your metaphor. We
>> struggle against the
>> tide of "normal" design and construction and often
>> end up nibbling
>> around the edges or being very expensive. Effective
>> and thorough
>> application of green building ends up being
>> available mostly to the
>> wealthy or to those who chose to live outside
>> society who have the time
>> to slowly patch together a sustainable system for
>> living.
>>
>> An aspiration I have is healthy beautiful and
>> sustainable design
>> available to the masses, energy efficient healthy
>> and beautiful building
>> being the basic starting point, not an added option
>> for those who can
>> afford it. Low income communities of color are among
>> the most degraded
>> toxic and unsustainable: how can green building be
>> made readily
>> available to these communities? The conundrum that
>> you describe has to
>> do with making green elements affordable for the
>> wealthy clientele you
>> (and I) have; how can we as a society evolve so that
>> we not just make
>> things "green friendly" but intrinsically
>> sustainable?
>>
>> Mary's ideal of zero-energy zero material
>> consumption building is on one
>> hand a little like dreaming of a perpetual motion
>> machine and yet is
>> entirely laudable. Such building does exist - mud
>> houses in Mali or palm
>> branch huts in South India come to mind. But modern
>> society does not
>> exist in any organized way that could live that way
>> any more. I
>> certainly couldn't live that way and send my kids to
>> college as well.
>>
>> In short, your conundrum touches upon a question of
>> deep change in
>> society, utter transformation of the ways we live
>> and relate to one
>> another and the earth. A marvelous and daunting
>> challenge that extends
>> far beyond your showroom.
>>
>> Seth
>>
>> Geri Spieler wrote:
>> > Thanks for your replies:
>> > ...
>> > The best advice I've gotten from this post is to
>> bring my "totally
>> > green" stands back a bit and make the products
>> "green friendly"
>> > instead. I can still make the point, have
>> educational literature to
>> > elevate consciousness.
>> > ...
>> >
>> >
>> >     > Who can afford this? How are we supposed to
>> support green
>> >     building when the
>> >     > price is so ridiculously high?
>> >     >
>> >
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