[Greenbuilding] [BULK] Re: Tankless Water Heaters

[Kidd, Peter]

Infrastructure includes that internal to the home, 199,000 BTUh input
can require an upsize of piping.  Considerate of DOE but maybe not
enough to hang a Program on. 

-----Original Message-----
From: greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of Dr. C.F.
Vasile
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:26 AM
To: Lawrence Lile
Cc: greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] [BULK] Re: Tankless Water Heaters

You're right, "Gas demand is not really a problem for gas suppliers". 
Neverthless, page 7 of DOE's a 4 April 2003 Report entitled "ENERGY STAR
(r) Labeling Potential for Water Heaters" warns:

"Gas instantaneous water heaters will place a much greater demand on the
gas supply line.
Consumers should consult an expert when installing these products,
especially in older homes to ensure that the gas infrastructure can
support the application of such water heaters. Local gas utilities may
be able to help consumers with installation. Consequently, DOE could
limit ENERGY STAR criteria to gas instantaneous water heaters being used
in new construction.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Lile" <LLile at projsolco.com>
Cc: <greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 8:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] [BULK] Re: Tankless Water Heaters


> Gas demand is not really a problem for gas suppliers.  Electric demand
is 
> a problem, but in the grand scheme of things, a 20KW water heater is
not a 
> really big load.  There is probably a chiller in the local hospital
that 
> wastes more than 20KW just idling. Utilities pay more moeny to buy 
> electricity at peak demand times, usually in air conditioning peaks. 
> Demand is a management issue for the utility, but has nothing to do
with 
> energy savings.  That's why it's a phony argument.
>
>
> Electricity as a fuel is considered less desireable than gas, because
of 
> the inefficiency of producing electricity from heat, then transporting
it 
> long distances, then turning it back into heat.  You get about 40% of
the 
> energy back.  If you burn gas directly, you've created the heat where
it 
> is needed, and on a coal fired utility you've created less carbon in
the 
> process.  Historically, gas appliances were cheaper to run than
electric, 
> but that is changing as
> energy fluctuates.  That being said, an electric tankless is a great 
> problem solver in the right application.
>
> I wish Dr. Vasile well in his crusade to make the DOE start thinking 
> rationally!
>
> Lawrence Lile, PE, LEED AP
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org on behalf of Reuben
Deumling
> Sent: Thu 12/21/2006 11:36 AM
> To: Dr. C.F. Vasile
> Cc: greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org; Nick Pine
> Subject: [BULK] Re: [Greenbuilding] Tankless Water Heaters
>
>
>
> I certainly am not privy to the negotiations with and within the DOE
in
> relation to tankless water heaters, but the idea that at higher 
> saturations
> they (electric and gas tankless water heaters) could increase morning
and
> evening peaks seems plausible. Why do you consider them 'phony
arguments'?
> Reuben Deumling
>
> On 12/21/06, Dr. C.F. Vasile <gfx-ch at msn.com> wrote:
>>
>> If only that were true. One of the reasons given against tankless gas
>> heaters was that they would increase the peak demand on gas pipelines
--
>> which is totally false. They used the same phony argument against 
>> tankless
>> electric heaters.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Nick Pine" <nick at early.com>
>> To: <greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 8:51 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Tankless Water Heaters
>>
>
>
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