[Greenbuilding] FW: How green is cellulose infill? / thermal bridging?
George J. Nesbitt
geoedb at idiom.com
Tue Jul 11 14:03:57 CDT 2006
Yes it's by weight.
I looked at the bags of the 3 types of Green Fiber Cocoon insulation
that I have used.
1st is Cocoon Loose Fill (black bag) in small print it says don't add
water ( I think this is what my subcontractor used exclusively, even
though he build a custom truck/blowing rig for wet spray, and the
utilities and manufacture had seen it, nobody ever told him it wasn't
the right product). No indication to what is in it (I don't have a MIDS,
but that might list everything anyway).
2nd is Cocoon 2 Stabilized (green bag) meant for floor and ceiling
installation with water to reduce dust. Label says not for wall spray
application. 85% minimum recycled paper content. No indication of
additive or glue type.
3rd is Cocoon 2 Stabilized Borate Formula (blue bag). Intended for wet
wall spray, and floor/ceiling installation. No indication as to
additives and glue.
The stabilized formulas presumably have a glue mixed in, if you use a
formula that doesn't you would add glue as part of the wet spray setup.
I would like to use Cocoon 2 Stabilized Borate Formula (or similar
borate formula) exclusively, but couldn't buy it last time I needed
some. Supply shortages, manufacturer rationing supplier, supplier
rationing customers, me not big enough customer and lucky to be able to
buy anything.
I use cellulose in two places, retrofit existing walls (by drilling and
sticking hose up wall to dense pack completely) and as retrofit ceiling
insulation, I would like to add water to reduce dust, but haven't set up
to do so yet. The only other thing I would use for existing walls is
foam, but I don't have the equipment. For ceilings fiberglass is
acceptable, but use a pure product like Certain teed Insulsafe (1%
mineral oil and silicone to control dust), blow in is preferable to
bats, I prefer cellulose due to high recycled content. For open walls,
retrofit or new fiberglass bats are wok if installed perfectly, with a
formaldehyde free product, and airtight construction. Johns- Manville
Spider spray in looks like a good product, and wet spray cellulose is an
option, and spray foam is another (in the order of cost).
The Johns-Manville formaldehyde free products are muct nicer to work
with than the older fiberglass (partly fiber design and part
formaldehyde glues) and have a distint acrylic glue smell.
For batt products use without a kraft vapor barrier or plastic
encapsulation, will be cheaper, easier to install.
I havn't mentioned cotton bats, because although I like the concept, the
added cost, and that they don't fluff as well to there full thickness,
means I prefer Johns-Manville formaldehyde free bats.
Jefro wrote:
>All of the products I have compared list 75-80% cellulose by weight, and
>20-25% "other stuff" by weight. It was the other stuff I was concerned
>about. I very much like the idea of ordering borates only, and we will
>do that if we go with cellulose.
>
>I read an article that I can't find now that talked about adhesives.
>Might have been a MSDS, but of course it would vary among
>manufacturers. Anyway, as I understand it, the adhesive most often used
>is simple white glue (PVA: polyvinyl acetate). Considering how much of
>that stuff we use around the house, I would say it falls within our
>acceptable range of toxicity. It certainly does a good job binding
>cellulose together. (fingers, too)
>
>Thanks very much to Keith and George for following up on this
>information so carefully.
>
>Keith Winston wrote:
>
>
>>Are you saying cellulose is 20% (by weight? by volume?) additives? I
>>find that really hard to believe. But thanks for the list of possible
>>additives, I think I'll do some further poking around when I have a
>>moment. I believe wet spray versions have some glue additives that are
>>activated by the water, which you don't mention I don't believe. It
>>would be interesting to check into this further: just looking at the
>>MSDS for a couple different products would be a good first step.
>>
>>Keith
>>
>>George J. Nesbitt wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Cellulose contains approximately. 20% of the following mix of
>>>additives; borax. boric acid, ammonium sulfate, aluminum sulfate,
>>>lime, ammonium phosphate, mono and diammonium phosphate, aluminum
>>>hydrate, aluminum trihydrate, and zinc chloride. (from The Healthy
>>>House, John Bower) Exact formula will very with manufacture, product
>>>line. Caccoon has three mixes, one of which is borate only for wet
>>>spray. Don't spray anything not designed for wet spray, I know a
>>>subcontractor that had a 10K sqft house that cost 50K to remediate
>>>after the client smelled ammonia! Always ask for borate only, no
>>>matter how or were you are going to install, dry pack in wall, loose
>>>fill on ceiling, or wet spray in open walls.
>>>
>>>Borate in enough quantity can abdominal pain, and liver, kidney and
>>>lung dysfunction. Personal protection is required, minimize skin
>>>contact, safety glasses , and good lung protection.
>>>
>>>I was talking with a builder friend the other day about using
>>>stainless steel nails in ACQ pressure treated rather than double hot
>>>dipped galvanized to reduce corrosion. And that it wouldn't be a bad
>>>idea to use double hot dipped nails everywhere in a house, because
>>>when you remodel old houses you find corrosion on the steel nails.
>>>Simpson Strong Tie had a chart showing borate treated wood as more
>>>corrosive than ACQ, which as it turns out is more corrosive than CCA,
>>>and other older treatments.
>>>
>>>Corwyn wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Jul 10, 2006, at 17:24, Alan Abrams wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Hmmmm, anyone have any hard data on this issue of thermal bridging? My
>>>>>guess is that what is observed (in infrared photography, etc) is to
>>>>>a large
>>>>>extent convection along the edge of fiberglass batts. How much heat
>>>>>does a
>>>>>2x6 actually conduct, particularly if it's snugly insulated, say, with
>>>>>cellulose or sprayed in place polyurethane? What is the moisture
>>>>>content of
>>>>>wood members, when tested for thermal performance, compared to a
>>>>>stud that
>>>>>lives in a thoroughly dried out wall cavity? Is wood getting a bad
>>>>>rap,
>>>>>thermally speaking?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>A 2x6 is about R-6.8 (edgewise) counting just the wood (i.e. not in
>>>>a wall at all).
>>>>
>>>>An article on whole wall thermal performance can be found at:
>>>>http://www.ornl.gov/sci/roofs+walls/whole_wall/
>>>>
>>>>Thank You Kindly,
>>>>
>>>>Corwyn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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