[Greenbuilding] hot water heating options

Tue Oct 3 15:52:39 CDT 2006

Dear Ms. Tran: Tankless "capacity limitations" can be alleviated by 
recycling waste heat using a GFX Power Booster 
(http://www.gfxtechnology.com/). Some models will more than double a 
tankless heater's shower-capacity by increasing the First Hour Rating (FHR); 
as verified by Virginia Power tests summarized @ 
http://www.gfxtechnology.com/tests.html. Don't expect support from local 
utility managers. They hate GFX & Tankless-Heaters alike because they will 
"milk their cash cow" --- millions of kWh/Therms/Btu's wasted in stand-by 
loss from a hundred million plus tank-type water heaters having no Energy 
Star Labels! This Emery Star issue is another national disgrace of the Bush 
Administration.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bambi Tran" <doingitgreen at yahoo.com>
To: <greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] hot water heating options

> Hi Keith and others,
>
>  Thanks for your suggestions. To clarify: The house is currently 
> unoccupied, but the non-profit expects to sell it to a couple with one or 
> two kids. The laundry (washer/dryer) is right next to the full bath on the 
> second floor. The half bath is right next to the kitchen on the first 
> floor. The half bath and full bath are lined up vertically (more or less).
>
> We are leaning towards the tankless gas system, but are concerned about 
> the capacity limitations. Anyone have experience with these care to share?
>
>  Our second choice would be an electric tank unit for it's efficiency and 
> lower standby loss.
>
>  THOUGHTS???
>
>  Cheers,
>  Bambi
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 11:26:07 -0400
> From: Keith Winston
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Hot Water Heater options
> To: Greenbuilder list
> Message-ID: <45212F8F.4000307 at earthsunenergy.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> Hi Bambi! Your choices (as if you didn't know):
>
> Hi-eff. gas tank unit, 90+% combustion eff., standby loss takes system
> efficiency probably 10-20% lower, $600-$3000
> Elect. tank unit, nearly 100% eff (though electrical generation is only
> 35% or so), somewhat lower standby loss (no flue), $250-500
> Gas Tankless, no standby loss, combustion efficiency 85%, $1000-2500
> (flow delays and capacity limitations are occasional complaints with
> tankless/on-demand heaters)
> Electric tankless, nearly 100% efficient, same generation caveat, no
> standby loss, $4-600 (same flow-delay caveat, also they require a BIG
> electrical circuit)
> Heat Pump Water Heater, probably > 200% efficient BUT uses indoor air so
> gives you free AC in the summer BUT adds heating demand in the winter,
> must be coupled with tank (some units include tanks), probably
> $1200-2000 installed (Watt$aver has mixed reviews, includes tank, trade
> price around $1300: Nyletherm 110 has somewhat more complicated install
> & requires additional tank, unit price around $900
> http://www.nyletherm.com/waterheating.htm)
>
> Ah, and of course, SOLAR. Good fit with any tankless, potentially good
> fit with tanked backup systems. Federal tax credits. System cost, before
> fed & state credits, $5-8000. Efficiency through the roof in a good
> install in a favorable location.
>
> Finally: if all your fixtures are within 20 feet of each other, they
> probably all go down the same stack? Are they all out of the basement,
> that is (particularly) is your washing machine somewhere other than the
> basement? It is quite likely that installing a gravity film exchanger on
> your waste stack is a no-brainer with every system above. Installed cost
> something like $1000, requires 3-5' of vertical stack, with as many
> fixtures flowing through that section of stack as possible.
> http://gfxtechnology.com/
>
> I don't stand by a single number above! This is all off the top of my
> head, so it might help orient you/others, but I don't guarantee anything
> here is accurate! Specifically, I await all kinds of arguments about the
> real level of standby loss a modern, well-insulated tank system suffers.
>
> We'll leave geothermal out of the picture for now? Of course, someone
> ought to have built a mini-split Air to Water unit, but it's not out
> yet. Good luck, see you soon!
>
> BTW: have there been 3-4 people living there, and how has the 40 gallon
> tank stood up -- any shortage of water? This will help size the next unit.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Bambi Tran wrote:
>> I'm trying to figure out the energy-efficient, and life-cycle 
>> cost-effective hot water heating option for the following affordable 
>> rehab project... please advise!
>>
>> -- 1000 sf rowhouse in Washington, DC
>> -- 3-4 people
>> -- 1 full bath, 1 half bath, laundry (washer/dryer), kitchen with 
>> dishwasher and sink... all within 20 feet of each other
>> -- available utilities: gas, electric
>> -- mechanical room in unfinished cellar
>> -- current water heater is an old (1980s), 40 gal, gas water heater
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Bambi Tran
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger?s low PC-to-Phone call 
>> rates.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding email list
>> List info: 
>> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_listserv.repp.org
>> List email: Greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org
>> Managed by BuildingGreen, Inc. http://www.buildinggreen.com
>> publisher of Environmental Building News and GreenSpec(r)
>> Hosted and archived by REPP / CREST http://www.crest.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> -- 
> Keith Winston
> Earth Sun Energy Systems
> 3927 Madison St.
> Hyattsville, MD 20781
> 301-980-6325
> keith at earthsunenergy.com
> www.EarthSunEnergy.com
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 09:14:33 -0700
> From: "Reuben Deumling" <9watts at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Hot Water Heater options
> To: "Bambi Tran"
> Cc: greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org
> Message-ID:
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> keep the heater you have and add heat trap/antisiphon loops to the flex
> lines at the top, and where possible insulate pipes if they aren't 
> already.
> You could also add an insulation blanket to the heater.
> Cost: almost negligible
> Additional materials required: almost negligible
> Gas use: if you're lucky, slightly lower than in past.
>
> All other options listed by Keith (insofar as they are commercially
> available technologies) are in my opinion quite spendy once you've paid
> someone to install them, and, again in my opinion, the gas savings over 
> what
> you already have or can achieve with the above measures aren't going to be
> all that impressive. The biggest "savings" could come from the use 
> patterns
> of hot water your occupants have or are willing to learn.
>
> When it comes to fuel use for domestic water heating we're unfortunately
> mostly guessing because it is both uncommon and a bit involved to submeter
> gas/electricity and hot water use in a residence. I've done a bunch of 
> this
> on my own in households of friends and relatives who've allowed it. Anyone
> else who has done this, I'd be very curious to learn of your results.
>
> Reuben Deumling
>
>
>
> On 10/2/06, Bambi Tran wrote:
>>
>> I'm trying to figure out the energy-efficient, and life-cycle
>> cost-effective hot water heating option for the following affordable 
>> rehab
>> project... please advise!
>>
>> -- 1000 sf rowhouse in Washington, DC
>> -- 3-4 people
>> -- 1 full bath, 1 half bath, laundry (washer/dryer), kitchen with
>> dishwasher and sink... all within 20 feet of each other
>> -- available utilities: gas, electric
>> -- mechanical room in unfinished cellar
>> -- current water heater is an old (1980s), 40 gal, gas water heater
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Bambi Tran
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call
>> rates.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding email list
>> List info:
>> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_listserv.repp.org
>> List email: Greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org
>> Managed by BuildingGreen, Inc. http://www.buildinggreen.com
>> publisher of Environmental Building News and GreenSpec(r)
>> Hosted and archived by REPP / CREST http://www.crest.org
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 09:58:28 -0700
> From: "Mary Bull - Greenwood Earth Alliance"
>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] ***Forest Stewardship Council: A list of
> theirlatest lying certifications!***
> To: "RONALD CASCIO"
> Cc: Greenbuilding
> Message-ID: <003601c6e643$fbef9e60$cd02a8c0 at Debussy>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> What's with you?! You should do your own local research, and share it with
> your community. Being part of the big, sleek, centralized, industrial
> products chain--i.e., corporate economic globalization that gobbles up
> global resources--the global commons-- into its gaping maw and spits out a
> seemingly endless line of products that you purchase--IS the problem.
> Weaning yourself from the corporate tit is the solution. I cannot do that
> for you. You have to take responsibility for that. It took me a long time 
> to
> find local resources, but the Internet and word of mouth are powerful 
> things
> and will eventually get you there.
>
> Mary Bull, Co-director
> Greenwood Earth Alliance, Save the Redwoods - Boycott the Gap Campaign
> 252 Frederick, San Francisco, CA 94117 http://www.gapsucks.org
> Chalice Farm and Sustainable Living Center, 748 Montgomery Rd, Sebastopol 
> CA
> 95472
> 415-731-7924 - 415-509-1188 chalicenew at earthlink.net
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "RONALD CASCIO"
> To: "Mary Bull - Greenwood Earth Alliance" ;
> "Greenbuilding" ; "Tim Hermach (Native
> Forest Council)" ; "Bug Deacon (Heritage Salvage)"
> ; "Mike (Green Frame)"
> Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 12:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] ***Forest Stewardship Council: A list of
> theirlatest lying certifications!***
>
>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: Mary Bull-
>>
>> So-called "green" builders have to wake up from their state of denial, 
>> and
>> use only salvaged wood in their buildings, such as that provided by
> Heritage
>> Salvage in Petaluma! (Go, Bug, go!!!)
>>
>> Tell ya what Mary, I would be more than happy to give you a place to stay
>> here while you search out a source of recovered framing lumber available
> to
>> me locally that is anywhere near affordable. You can stay with us for 
>> free
>> for as long as it takes.
>>
>> Thanks for being a part of the solution. When can I pick you up at the
>> airport?
>>
>>
>> Ron Cascio
>> Chestnut Creek
>> Design/Build/Consult/Develop
>> Maryland`s Eastern Shore
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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> publisher of Environmental Building News and GreenSpec(r)
> Hosted and archived by REPP / CREST http://www.crest.org
>
> End of Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 4, Issue 3
> *******************************************
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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> _______________________________________________
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> List info: 
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>      publisher of Environmental Building News and GreenSpec(r)
> Hosted and archived by REPP / CREST http://www.crest.org
> 