[Greenbuilding] Getting the Numbers Right (was ***Forest Stewardship Council: A list of their latest lying certifications!***)

[Tim Keating]

Mary,

Here's the very first finding from WRI's "The 
Last Frontier Forests", published in 1997:

"Almost half of Earth's original forest cover is 
gone, much of it destroyed within the past three 
decades."

That was 10 years ago. The finding from that 
report was that only 20% of the world's so-called 
"frontier forests:
"Today, just one fifth of the world's original 
forest cover remains in large tracts of 
relatively undisturbed forest what WRI calls 
frontier forest."

Later in the report, frontier forests are defined as:
"Š the large, ecologically intact, and relatively 
undisturbed natural forests that still remain."

The report can still be downloaded at:
http://forests.wri.org/pubs_pdf.cfm?PubID=2619

tim keating

At 11:36 AM -0700 10/16/06, Mary Bull - Greenwood Earth Alliance wrote:
>Hi All!
>
>I got the figure of 80% gone from a paper 
>written by Antonia Juhasz when she was with 
>American Lands. She's one of the best 
>researchers and activists any one will ever 
>meet--she is currently on tour in the Red States 
>with her new book, "The Bush Agenda: Invading 
>the World, One Economy at a Time" When I asked 
>her where she got that figure, she said the WWF, 
>but she could have meant WRI (she was moving 
>from American Lands to the International Forum 
>on Globalization at the time, and couldn't 
>provide me with the document she was 
>referencing).

Mary, you've pretty much made my point for me. 
The game of "telephone" in play rather than 
citing original studies. When you can quote an 
original study instead of quoting RAN misquoting 
WRI, then I'll listen and consider changing the 
stats I quote. Until then, I'll continue to quote 
original studies and continue to differentiate 
between old growth forests and Frontier Forests.


>Why am I taking this tone with you, Tim? BECAUSE 
>I AM SURE YOU CANNOT PROVE THERE IS 50% LEFT, 
>yet you insist there is. And I think you should 
>err on the side of the planet at this critical 
>juncture.

See, I guess that's my point. I don't want to 
'err' at all. Of course, no one knows the exact 
figure but my original point was that when we 
misquote the stats, in an effort to scare people 
into action, then we open ourselves up to having 
the rug pulled out from under us at hearings, 
council meetings, demonstrations, etc.

I was heard a volunteer, during an action 
concerning the Lubicon Cree, who's customary 
lands were being ravaged by Abatibi up in the 
middle of Canada's boreal forests, state right on 
camera that we were there fighting for "Canada's 
rainforests". Point being, if we're going to be 
outspoken spokespeople and respected as such by 
the media, scientific community and even people 
on this list, let's at least not trump up false 
numbers. Especially when there's just no need to 
do so. Fifty percent of Earth's original forest 
cover gone!!! Isn't that scary enough? Eighty 
percent of Frontier Forests gone!!! Not 
catastrophic enough?? Why confuse the numbers and 
misquote reports? This just enables people to 
write one off and thus shove one's entire 
argument aside.

For the forests,
tim keating

>
>Cheers,
>
>Mary
>
>
>
>
>
>Mary Bull, Co-director
>Greenwood Earth Alliance, Save the Redwoods - Boycott the Gap Campaign
>252 Frederick, San Francisco, CA 94117 
><http://www.gapsucks.org>http://www.gapsucks.org
>Chalice Farm and Sustainable Living Center, 748 
>Montgomery Rd, Sebastopol CA 95472
>415-731-7924 - 415-509-1188 
><mailto:chalicenew at earthlink.net>chalicenew at earthlink.net
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:t.keating at rainforestrelief.org>Tim Keating
>To: <mailto:chalicenew at earthlink.net>Mary Bull - 
>Greenwood Earth Alliance ; 
><mailto:GREENBUILDING at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>Greenbuilding 
>; <mailto:tim at forestcouncil.org>Tim Hermach 
>(Native Forest Council) ; 
><mailto:michael at heritagesalvage.com>Bug Deacon 
>(Heritage Salvage) ; 
><mailto:Greenframe at aol.com>Mike (Green Frame)
>Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 10:44 AM
>Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] ***Forest 
>Stewardship Council: A list of their latest 
>lying certifications!***
>
>Mary,
>
>At 5:41 PM -0700 10/12/06, Mary Bull - Greenwood Earth Alliance wrote:
>
>>Tim, Please tell me which temperate 
>>second-growth certifications are sound--I'd 
>>really like to know. Certainly not Tembec, not 
>>MRC, not J.D. Irving...
>
>
>Menomenee Tribal Enterprises seemed to me to be 
>very sound. Collins Pine, some of the early 
>ones. I certainly haven't kept up on 
>certifications in the temperate regions but I do 
>know that, when one is talking about 
>second-growth, it's a lot easier to retain 
>ecological functioning in temperate forests 
>(since the big hit was the initial clearing and 
>diversity is quite low when compared with 
>tropical forests). I think you'd find sound 
>certifications all over. Unfortunately, the 
>standards have been undermined so much that 
>they're mixed in with lots of ones that are not 
>sound.
>
>>
>>
>The 80% figure concurs with the depletion of the ancient redwood forests--
>
>
>Well, sure, the US is racked - but that can't be 
>extrapolated across the world. The Amazon is 
>still about 80% in-tact, Papua New Guinea, the 
>Solomons, large parts of Africa. Siberia is 
>still mostly in-tact as well as much of Canada's 
>boreal. Of course, all these places are under 
>'the gun' but we can't just say they're gone.
>
>
>>in fact, they have entered and destroyed or 
>>severely damaged almost 98%. With that stat 
>>comes the stat that most of this damage was 
>>done in the past 30 years, which is true of the 
>>redwood forests: circa 1970 is when industrial 
>>logging went into high gear. By the way, these 
>>two stats are many years old by now--I've been 
>>using them for the past six years. And Big 
>>Timber hasn't been whistling Dixie in the 
>>interim.
>>
>
>
>Tim, I really don't think any one knows for sure 
>the exact figure, at this point.
>
>
>Well, WRI's study was probably the most rigorous 
>ever done. And FAO puts out their figures every 
>five years.
>
>>The latest study of satellite photos released 
>>this past year reportedly show that the Amazon 
>>has been logged twice as much at twice the rate 
>>than was previously believed (I can dig up 
>>these articles if you like).
>>
>
>I have them all over our website. I quote them 
>all the time. But that doesn't change the 
>50%-old-growth figure enough to justify saying 
>20%.
>
>>Where do you get your 50% figure? The UN? I had 
>>an exchange with Simon Counsell of Rainforest 
>>Foundation, UK, who is at sharp odds with the 
>>UN's latest rosy figures,
>>
>
>As am I, Mary. I've been attacking their figures 
>for years. But it's mostly because they consider 
>deforestation to be the complete clearing of 
>trees. No, I'm getting my figures from WRI, WWF 
>and other major studies. Yes, they're a few 
>years old. But in six years we haven't gone from 
>50% old growth to 20%.
>
>
>>and who believes that there are no reliable 
>>figures--there need to be (I can send you those 
>>exchanges with all the details as to why they 
>>are grossly inaccurate).
>>
>
>I've seen it.
>
>
>>Environmentalists can figure the damage in 
>>their forests--like we have done--and those 
>>figures are generally staggering, well beyond 
>>the 80% figure--like the 98% of old growth 
>>redwood gone.
>>
>
>But that's only for certain areas.
>
>
>>Or did you want to contest that, too. Please 
>>come to the redwoods and show me those millions 
>>of acres of ancient forests--I invite you to.
>>
>
>Mary, I'm not sure why you seem to want to take 
>disagreement to this level. From where are you 
>deriving your figure of 80% of primary forests 
>gone?
>
>tim keating
>
>>
>>
>Mary
>
>
>
>Mary Bull, Co-director
>Greenwood Earth Alliance, Save the Redwoods - Boycott the Gap Campaign
>252 Frederick, San Francisco, CA 94117 
><http://www.gapsucks.org>http://www.gapsucks.org
>Chalice Farm and Sustainable Living Center, 748 
>Montgomery Rd, Sebastopol CA 95472
>
>415-731-7924 - 415-509-1188 
><mailto:chalicenew at earthlink.net>chalicenew at earthlink.net
>
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><


-- 


"The Earth and myself are of one mind. The measure of the land and the
measure of our bodies are the same..."
     	                               - Hinmaton Yalatkit, Nez Perce chief
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