[Greenbuilding] overhead cellulose dense pack?`

Sun Apr 8 22:57:34 CDT 2007

John, please rant. We have a Japanese student who lives in my mother's 
apartment who said how odd it was that we Muricans heat the whole space 
of our houses. Koichi explained that in Tokyo people wear coats indoors 
and drop the temperatures of their homes to the point of seeing their 
breath. In Korea, there are the central tables underwhich a small 
charcoal burner is placed and quilts hang around the edges to keep 
people seated around the table warm. Electric mattress pads or zoned 
warm water plumbed to a thin water bed might do away with night time 
space heating in the same way.

It is only in the imbalancing of central forced air systems that keep us 
from effectively zoning our homes. With occupancy sensors, a radiant 
system could follow us through our lives at home (or at work). This 
sounds like a plug for our local electric utility, but programmable 
zoned hot water could follow us in large blocks of time. I think it also 
calls into question the mind set of thermal mass to maintain all spaces 
at even temperatures. Concrete has a huge embedded energy cost. What you 
are proposing is quite interesting. Thanks.

Bill Dorsett
Sunwrights
Manhattan, KS

John Salmen wrote:
> I disagree about including basements within envelopes. I know we are
> supposed to look at everything with the envelope as conditioned space but I
> think the logic is flawed. We need to look at rapid recovery within an area
> that is occupied as it is occupied, essentially radiant heating that moves
> with you.
>
> This used to be lighting a fire in a room before you moved into it - now it
> is programmable thermostats and zoned spaces. We are not a jug of milk in
> the fridge needing to be maintained at a certain temp. 
>
> Primarily we move between spaces with big lag times that are relatively
> predictable. We also benefit from a variety of temperature experiences - but
> even if we don't want to have that pleasure we can design spaces that are
> primarily radiant heating us and not the objects, so can carry us in our
> travels within a predictable comfort zone.
>
> If we worked with this kind of criteria heating systems would be downsized
> and more efficient. Materials would improve such as wax impregnated gypsum
> board or better.
>
> I could go on but it would start to be a rant.
>
> JOHN SALMEN ENVIRONMENTAL DESIGN
> 4465 UPHILL RD,. DUNCAN, B.C.  CANADA, V9L 6M7
> PH 250 748 7672 FAX 250 748 7612 CELL 250 246 8541
> terrain at shaw.ca
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of Drew A.
> Gillett, P.E.
> Sent: April 5, 2007 9:18 AM
> To: Corwyn; Reuben Deumling
> Cc: Greenbuilder list
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] overhead cellulose dense pack?`
>
> yes you are,
>
> both this and corwyns previous post illustrate the problem.
>
> on the frig you get over 3 times the volume useful space for only twice the 
> heat loss. this is the main reason why smaller frigs are less efficient per 
> cubic foot and more costly to buy per cu ft.
>
>
>
>  same story on the basement ceiling.  if you don't need the space, make the 
> whole house smaller, but keep the basement in the insulating envelope.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Corwyn" <corwyn at midcoast.com>
> To: "Reuben Deumling" <9watts at gmail.com>
> Cc: "Drew A. Gillett, P.E." <deaneg at hotmail.com>; "Greenbuilder list" 
> <GREENBUILDING at listserv.repp.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 9:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] overhead cellulose dense pack?`
>
>
>   
>> On Apr 04, 2007, at 16:39, Reuben Deumling wrote:
>>     
>>>  Or am I missing something?
>>>       
>> Not that I can see.  Insulating the basement ceiling is better than 
>> insulating the basement walls and slab (even if you could get the same 
>> insulation levels at the same price and embodied energy).  If you aren't 
>> using the space, move it outside the heating envelope.
>>
>> In my experience, basement ceilings are the single biggest heat loss 
>> location in reasonable homes.
>>
>> Thank You Kindly,
>>
>> Corwyn
>>
>> -- 
>> Corwyn
>> Kermit didn't know the half of it...
>> http://www.greenfret.com/
>> corwyn at greenfret.com
>>
>>
>>     
>
>
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