[Greenbuilding] Radiant heat boiler--heat exchanger for tiny buildings/families?

Sat Feb 10 18:39:36 CST 2007

I think overkill means not worth the investment in the heat-exchanger,
including the resources that went into manufacturing it and those that go
into maintaining it--overkill because we will generate more than adequate
hot water and heat from renewable sources, without needing to worry about
some loss.

Mary Bull, Co-director
Greenwood Earth Alliance, Save the Redwoods - Boycott the Gap Campaign
252 Frederick, San Francisco, CA 94117 http://www.gapsucks.org
Chalice Farm and Sustainable Living Center, 748 Montgomery Rd, Sebastopol CA
95472
415-731-7924 - 415-509-1188 chalicenew at earthlink.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carmine Vasile" <gfx-ch at msn.com>
To: <chalicenew at earthlink.net>; <LLile at projsolco.com>;
<dmelchert at earthlink.net>; <greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Radiant heat boiler--heat exchanger for tiny
buildings/families?

> Mary: Since you asked; what does your "greenbuilder/designer" define as
> "overkill"? Does he know  1/3 of California's residential energy usage
went
> to heat water in 1991; 80-90% of which went down-the-drain according to
the
> CEC PIE Chart @ http://gfxtechnology.com/CEC.pdf? What's changed? Carmine
>
>
> >From: "Mary Bull - Greenwood Earth Alliance" <chalicenew at earthlink.net>
> >Reply-To: "Mary Bull - Greenwood Earth Alliance"
<chalicenew at earthlink.net>
> >To: "Dr. C.F. Vasile" <gfx-ch at msn.com>,"Lawrence Lile"
> ><LLile at projsolco.com>,"David Seth Melchert"
> ><dmelchert at earthlink.net>,"Greenbuilder list"
> ><greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>
> >Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Radiant heat boiler--heat exchanger for tiny
> >buildings/families?
> >Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 08:31:24 -0800
> >
> >Dr. Vasile,
> >
> >I asked our greenbuilder/designer about your heat exchanger, and he said
it
> >was overkill for applications/buildings our size in our climate and so on
> >(our building is a three-story strawbale tower with a 420SF footprint for
> >two people on the Sonoma, California, coast). What do you think?
> >
> >Thanks!
> >
> >Mary Bull, Co-director
> >Greenwood Earth Alliance, Save the Redwoods - Boycott the Gap Campaign
> >252 Frederick, San Francisco, CA 94117 http://www.gapsucks.org
> >Chalice Farm and Sustainable Living Center, 748 Montgomery Rd, Sebastopol
> >CA
> >95472
> >415-731-7924 - 415-509-1188 chalicenew at earthlink.net
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Dr. C.F. Vasile" <gfx-ch at msn.com>
> >To: "Lawrence Lile" <LLile at projsolco.com>; "David Seth Melchert"
> ><dmelchert at earthlink.net>; "Greenbuilder list"
> ><greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>
> >Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 3:12 PM
> >Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] [BULK] Radiant heat boiler
> >
> >
> > > Why are you guys on the "GREEN" Building List; three (3) tankless
water
> > > heaters are "excessive" because 80-90% of their outputs (shower power
&
> > > energy) are wasted down-the-drain; when 50%-60% of it could be
recycled
> > > (www.gfxtechnology.com)!
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Lawrence Lile" <LLile at projsolco.com>
> > > To: "David Seth Melchert" <dmelchert at earthlink.net>; "Greenbuilder
list"
> > > <greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 7:33 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] [BULK] Radiant heat boiler
> > >
> > >
> > > > Well, a shower head is about 3 GPM, you can figure your peak flow
from
> > > > there.  For the most part, people don't use the shower and the sink
at
> > > > the same time in one bathroom, and the shower generally can't be
used
> >at
> > > > the same time as the tub.  You can also figure peak flows from the
> > > > number of occupants - are there enough people in the house to take 3
> > > > showers at a time?  People may also use the washer and dishwasher at
> >the
> > > > same time as a bath.  In my current house, they won't do this more
> >than
> > > > once, since we have a wimpy tankless that can't keep up with more
than
> > > > one load at a go.  Brrr.
> > > >
> > > > In my new house, a Tagaki jr, model is keeping up with two showers
at
> > > > once.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > If these bathrooms are not grouped, or if the kitchen is not nearby,
> > > > you'll want two sources of hot water.  A typical tankless heater has
> > > > several seconds of delay (My tagaki waits 6 seconds before firing)
> >plus
> > > > the long run, can mean minutes of wait to get hot water.  The buffer
> > > > tank sounds like a good idea actually - I was considering putting
> > > > something like that in a kitchen that has the long run problem.  Add
> > > > extra insulation to whatever the manufacturer thought was enough,
> > > > because the buffer tank defeats some of the savings associated with
> >the
> > > > tankless.
> > > >
> > > > I can't imagine 3 tankless heaters, seems pretty excessive.  Do the
> >math
> > > > and see what you come up with.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Lawrence Lile, P.E., LEED AP
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> > > > [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of David
> >Seth
> > > > Melchert
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 6:04 PM
> > > > To: Greenbuilder list
> > > > Subject: [BULK] [Greenbuilding] Radiant heat boiler
> > > > Importance: Low
> > > >
> > > > We have started a large residential remodel in Orinda, CA. The 2,800
> >sf
> > > > house will be heated with radiant floor heat. We were planning to
use
> >a
> > > > Baxi Luna 330 instant heater for combined radiant and domestic hot
> > > > water. I really love the Baxi Luna for its compact design and
> >simplicity
> > > >
> > > > of installation, not to mention its general high efficiency.
> > > >
> > > > However we are concerned about its capacity to serve the demands of
a
> >3
> > > > bath house. The homeowner consulted with a supplier who suggested
that
> >5
> > > >
> > > > gpm, delta 70 degrees is the minimum required, more than the 144,000
> > > > BTU's the Baxi Luna provides. Baxi has a new Modula supplemental
tank
> > > > that holds 21 gallons and serves as a kind of buffer for temporary
> >high
> > > > demands. My homeowner is concerned this will not cut it. They are
> >edging
> > > >
> > > > towards having separate heat sources, such as a Noritz or an
efficient
> > > > large tank for DHW.
> > > >
> > > > Here are my questions: how many gpm should we figure for hot water
> >needs
> > > >
> > > > at any one time, and how often might a family of four run into
> > > > insufficient hot water using the Baxi? Would you agree that
providing
> > > > separate heat sources for radiant and DHW would be the best path?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > >
> > > > Seth Melchert
> > > > Oakland CA
> > > > _______________________________________________
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