[Greenbuilding] MUST READ MONBIOT's HEAT!!! was...Radiant heat boiler--heat exchanger for tiny buildings/families?

Mon Feb 12 09:46:34 CST 2007

...Now don't be dense, Dr. Vasile: The issue is one of scale. And don't get
me started on the INDUSTRIAL FOOD CHAIN --there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about
it that is SUSTAINABLE (or just, or humane...). We all should boycott it and
buy only local and organic (read "The Omnivore's Dilemma" by Michael Pollan,
or better yet, see "The Future of Food" now available for rent in video
stores--both excellent!!!)

BTW, George Monbiot does a good analysis of heat and power combo plants in
his MUST READ "Heat: How to Save the Planet From Burning." You can't get
this book in the US until July, evidently, but it is available in Canada and
the UK--I mail-ordered two copies from Canada and am lending them to all my
friends and colleagues. It analyzes and debunks many of the
alternative/"renewable" technologies out there and proposes a VIABLE WAY to
reduce CO2 emissions by 2% in five or six sectors by 2030. In case you don't
know him, his is the brilliant UK Guardian journalist and researcher who has
made global warming his focus for many years now.

Anyone who takes global warming seriously --and who doesn't now?--should
read this book!

Cheers and Thanks!

Mary

Mary Bull, Co-director
Greenwood Earth Alliance, Save the Redwoods - Boycott the Gap Campaign
252 Frederick, San Francisco, CA 94117 http://www.gapsucks.org
Chalice Farm and Sustainable Living Center, 748 Montgomery Rd, Sebastopol CA
95472
415-731-7924 - 415-509-1188 chalicenew at earthlink.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carmine Vasile" <gfx-ch at msn.com>
To: <chalicenew at earthlink.net>; <greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Radiant heat boiler--heat exchanger for tiny
buildings/families?

> The only way to address "overkill" issues is to compare the Savings to
> Investment Ratio (SIR) of a water heater using renewable energy with and
> without a GFX to a conventional system with & without a GFX.  The
following
> links @ http://www.gfxtechnology.com/GFX.html provide SIR calculations for
> "Maine"  "New York"    "Ohio"    "U.S. Average". The latter has formulas
> that can be used to account for current energy prices and the fact that
> California has three Climate Zones.
>
> Also, California's food processing industry wastes billions of gallons of
> hot water each year, yet the  CEC seems to think it's "overkill" to
recycle
> wastewater heat from this industry too.
>
>
> >From: "Mary Bull - Greenwood Earth Alliance" <chalicenew at earthlink.net>
> >Reply-To: "Mary Bull - Greenwood Earth Alliance"
<chalicenew at earthlink.net>
> >To: "Carmine Vasile" <gfx-ch at msn.com>,<greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>
> >Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Radiant heat boiler--heat exchanger for tiny
> >buildings/families?
> >Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 16:39:36 -0800
> >
> >I think overkill means not worth the investment in the heat-exchanger,
> >including the resources that went into manufacturing it and those that go
> >into maintaining it--overkill because we will generate more than adequate
> >hot water and heat from renewable sources, without needing to worry about
> >some loss.
> >
> >Mary Bull, Co-director
> >Greenwood Earth Alliance, Save the Redwoods - Boycott the Gap Campaign
> >252 Frederick, San Francisco, CA 94117 http://www.gapsucks.org
> >Chalice Farm and Sustainable Living Center, 748 Montgomery Rd, Sebastopol
> >CA
> >95472
> >415-731-7924 - 415-509-1188 chalicenew at earthlink.net
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Carmine Vasile" <gfx-ch at msn.com>
> >To: <chalicenew at earthlink.net>; <LLile at projsolco.com>;
> ><dmelchert at earthlink.net>; <greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>
> >Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 2:47 PM
> >Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Radiant heat boiler--heat exchanger for tiny
> >buildings/families?
> >
> >
> > > Mary: Since you asked; what does your "greenbuilder/designer" define
as
> > > "overkill"? Does he know  1/3 of California's residential energy usage
> >went
> > > to heat water in 1991; 80-90% of which went down-the-drain according
to
> >the
> > > CEC PIE Chart @ http://gfxtechnology.com/CEC.pdf? What's changed?
> >Carmine
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "Mary Bull - Greenwood Earth Alliance"
<chalicenew at earthlink.net>
> > > >Reply-To: "Mary Bull - Greenwood Earth Alliance"
> ><chalicenew at earthlink.net>
> > > >To: "Dr. C.F. Vasile" <gfx-ch at msn.com>,"Lawrence Lile"
> > > ><LLile at projsolco.com>,"David Seth Melchert"
> > > ><dmelchert at earthlink.net>,"Greenbuilder list"
> > > ><greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>
> > > >Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Radiant heat boiler--heat exchanger for
> >tiny
> > > >buildings/families?
> > > >Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 08:31:24 -0800
> > > >
> > > >Dr. Vasile,
> > > >
> > > >I asked our greenbuilder/designer about your heat exchanger, and he
> >said
> >it
> > > >was overkill for applications/buildings our size in our climate and
so
> >on
> > > >(our building is a three-story strawbale tower with a 420SF footprint
> >for
> > > >two people on the Sonoma, California, coast). What do you think?
> > > >
> > > >Thanks!
> > > >
> > > >Mary Bull, Co-director
> > > >Greenwood Earth Alliance, Save the Redwoods - Boycott the Gap
Campaign
> > > >252 Frederick, San Francisco, CA 94117 http://www.gapsucks.org
> > > >Chalice Farm and Sustainable Living Center, 748 Montgomery Rd,
> >Sebastopol
> > > >CA
> > > >95472
> > > >415-731-7924 - 415-509-1188 chalicenew at earthlink.net
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Dr. C.F. Vasile" <gfx-ch at msn.com>
> > > >To: "Lawrence Lile" <LLile at projsolco.com>; "David Seth Melchert"
> > > ><dmelchert at earthlink.net>; "Greenbuilder list"
> > > ><greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>
> > > >Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 3:12 PM
> > > >Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] [BULK] Radiant heat boiler
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Why are you guys on the "GREEN" Building List; three (3) tankless
> >water
> > > > > heaters are "excessive" because 80-90% of their outputs (shower
> >power
> >&
> > > > > energy) are wasted down-the-drain; when 50%-60% of it could be
> >recycled
> > > > > (www.gfxtechnology.com)!
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Lawrence Lile" <LLile at projsolco.com>
> > > > > To: "David Seth Melchert" <dmelchert at earthlink.net>; "Greenbuilder
> >list"
> > > > > <greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 7:33 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] [BULK] Radiant heat boiler
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Well, a shower head is about 3 GPM, you can figure your peak
flow
> >from
> > > > > > there.  For the most part, people don't use the shower and the
> >sink
> >at
> > > > > > the same time in one bathroom, and the shower generally can't be
> >used
> > > >at
> > > > > > the same time as the tub.  You can also figure peak flows from
the
> > > > > > number of occupants - are there enough people in the house to
take
> >3
> > > > > > showers at a time?  People may also use the washer and
dishwasher
> >at
> > > >the
> > > > > > same time as a bath.  In my current house, they won't do this
more
> > > >than
> > > > > > once, since we have a wimpy tankless that can't keep up with
more
> >than
> > > > > > one load at a go.  Brrr.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In my new house, a Tagaki jr, model is keeping up with two
showers
> >at
> > > > > > once.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If these bathrooms are not grouped, or if the kitchen is not
> >nearby,
> > > > > > you'll want two sources of hot water.  A typical tankless heater
> >has
> > > > > > several seconds of delay (My tagaki waits 6 seconds before
firing)
> > > >plus
> > > > > > the long run, can mean minutes of wait to get hot water.  The
> >buffer
> > > > > > tank sounds like a good idea actually - I was considering
putting
> > > > > > something like that in a kitchen that has the long run problem.
> >Add
> > > > > > extra insulation to whatever the manufacturer thought was
enough,
> > > > > > because the buffer tank defeats some of the savings associated
> >with
> > > >the
> > > > > > tankless.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I can't imagine 3 tankless heaters, seems pretty excessive.  Do
> >the
> > > >math
> > > > > > and see what you come up with.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lawrence Lile, P.E., LEED AP
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> > > > > > [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of
> >David
> > > >Seth
> > > > > > Melchert
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 6:04 PM
> > > > > > To: Greenbuilder list
> > > > > > Subject: [BULK] [Greenbuilding] Radiant heat boiler
> > > > > > Importance: Low
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We have started a large residential remodel in Orinda, CA. The
> >2,800
> > > >sf
> > > > > > house will be heated with radiant floor heat. We were planning
to
> >use
> > > >a
> > > > > > Baxi Luna 330 instant heater for combined radiant and domestic
hot
> > > > > > water. I really love the Baxi Luna for its compact design and
> > > >simplicity
> > > > > >
> > > > > > of installation, not to mention its general high efficiency.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However we are concerned about its capacity to serve the demands
> >of
> >a
> > > >3
> > > > > > bath house. The homeowner consulted with a supplier who
suggested
> >that
> > > >5
> > > > > >
> > > > > > gpm, delta 70 degrees is the minimum required, more than the
> >144,000
> > > > > > BTU's the Baxi Luna provides. Baxi has a new Modula supplemental
> >tank
> > > > > > that holds 21 gallons and serves as a kind of buffer for
temporary
> > > >high
> > > > > > demands. My homeowner is concerned this will not cut it. They
are
> > > >edging
> > > > > >
> > > > > > towards having separate heat sources, such as a Noritz or an
> >efficient
> > > > > > large tank for DHW.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here are my questions: how many gpm should we figure for hot
water
> > > >needs
> > > > > >
> > > > > > at any one time, and how often might a family of four run into
> > > > > > insufficient hot water using the Baxi? Would you agree that
> >providing
> > > > > > separate heat sources for radiant and DHW would be the best
path?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Seth Melchert
> > > > > > Oakland CA
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
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