[Greenbuilding] Radiant heat boiler--heat exchanger for tinybuildings/families?

Mon Feb 12 21:18:04 CST 2007

Steve, thanks  for your advbice. A good friend who's been in the business
for a very long time just told me that his house needs a new boiler so he
called his supplier who said that if he can nurse it along for a few months,
that Bosch was coming out with an extraordinary boiler.

Bill Dorsett
Sunwrights
Manhattan, KS

----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Holt <Steve.Holt at enbridge.com>
To: Carmine Vasile <gfx-ch at msn.com>
Cc: <greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>; <niko at oharagercke.com>;
<LLile at projsolco.com>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Radiant heat boiler--heat exchanger for
tinybuildings/families?

> I enjoy reading many threads and occasional reply.  I have been involved
> hydronic heating systems for many years in Canada, and I have seen what
> works and what doesn't. 30 years of hands on service and installations
> give me some insight into HVAC.
>
> Niko from Alchemyinc makes a lot of sense.
>
>  Multiple tankless units  at point of use makes sense in an very large
> home with excessive piping runs to each fixture. However this is not a
> what I would recommend or install.  Primarily, it is very difficult, or
> not practical to do, these installations often leaves the equipment very
> unserviceable. ( building asthetics  are the killer here) Todays high tech
> equipment demands more service and it must be accessible.
>
> >From a serviceability and practical perspective, I always recommend a
> separate heating and hot water systems. Yes, I will sacrifice some
> efficiency in the name of redundancy and reliability. I will also justify
> the cost of mechanical equipment, on the cost of the home. A $500,000 home
> is worthy of a $40,000 HVAC system.
>
> I also only recommend what I would or do, or use in my own home. My
> choices are based on equipment I have serviced, and on equipment I have
> seen fail prematurely.
>
> Viessemenn Vitodens is the top of my list for radiant floor heating,
> however a very close second is the Weil McLain Ultra.  ( Price point and
> simplicity moves me to choose the Ultra ) . Both of these boilers will
> provide many years of reliable heat for any family. These are two pipe
> systems, and the combustion process will not affect the building envelope.
> Plumbing, controls, pumps and setup are key. Experienced HVAC Techs are a
> must, and they require a strong plumbing background.  ITT (Bell and
> Gossett owns the bible of hot water heating.) Ask anyone who has attended
> the little red school house.
>
> On to hot water, my choice ( Tankless, Takagi,  Rheem, Rinnai ) all good
> products. Again pick the two pipe modules. In larger homes, with very long
> piping runs, pipe in a domestic hot water recirculation line, ( well
> insulated ) and install a small circulator pump that cycles on a time /
> temperature schedule that meet the customers needs. ( Taco has some
> answers for re circulation problems ) I normally will install multiple
> units to meet larger hot water demands. Sometimes the addition of storage
> or a buffer tanks is a must for some hot water hogs. Pre heat your
> domestic hot water if possible, and you have a very reliable system.    (
> AO Smith wrote the DHW bible )
>
> A great technician and a good engineer are an unbeatable team for your
> infloor needs. If you go with the lowest cost, you most likely, will be
> sorry.
>
> Two cents from a somewhat green and practical guy.
>
> Steve Holt
> 416-574-6523
>
>
>
> "Carmine Vasile" <gfx-ch at msn.com>
> Sent by: greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> 02/10/2007 05:47 PM
>
> To
> chalicenew at earthlink.net, LLile at projsolco.com, dmelchert at earthlink.net,
> greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org
> cc
>
> Subject
> Re: [Greenbuilding] Radiant heat boiler--heat exchanger for tiny
> buildings/families?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Mary: Since you asked; what does your "greenbuilder/designer" define as
> "overkill"? Does he know  1/3 of California's residential energy usage
> went
> to heat water in 1991; 80-90% of which went down-the-drain according to
> the
> CEC PIE Chart @ http://gfxtechnology.com/CEC.pdf? What's changed? Carmine
>
>
> >From: "Mary Bull - Greenwood Earth Alliance" <chalicenew at earthlink.net>
> >Reply-To: "Mary Bull - Greenwood Earth Alliance"
> <chalicenew at earthlink.net>
> >To: "Dr. C.F. Vasile" <gfx-ch at msn.com>,"Lawrence Lile"
> ><LLile at projsolco.com>,"David Seth Melchert"
> ><dmelchert at earthlink.net>,"Greenbuilder list"
> ><greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>
> >Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Radiant heat boiler--heat exchanger for tiny
>
> >buildings/families?
> >Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 08:31:24 -0800
> >
> >Dr. Vasile,
> >
> >I asked our greenbuilder/designer about your heat exchanger, and he said
> it
> >was overkill for applications/buildings our size in our climate and so on
> >(our building is a three-story strawbale tower with a 420SF footprint for
> >two people on the Sonoma, California, coast). What do you think?
> >
> >Thanks!
> >
> >Mary Bull, Co-director
> >Greenwood Earth Alliance, Save the Redwoods - Boycott the Gap Campaign
> >252 Frederick, San Francisco, CA 94117 http://www.gapsucks.org
> >Chalice Farm and Sustainable Living Center, 748 Montgomery Rd, Sebastopol
>
> >CA
> >95472
> >415-731-7924 - 415-509-1188 chalicenew at earthlink.net
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Dr. C.F. Vasile" <gfx-ch at msn.com>
> >To: "Lawrence Lile" <LLile at projsolco.com>; "David Seth Melchert"
> ><dmelchert at earthlink.net>; "Greenbuilder list"
> ><greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>
> >Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 3:12 PM
> >Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] [BULK] Radiant heat boiler
> >
> >
> > > Why are you guys on the "GREEN" Building List; three (3) tankless
> water
> > > heaters are "excessive" because 80-90% of their outputs (shower power
> &
> > > energy) are wasted down-the-drain; when 50%-60% of it could be
> recycled
> > > (www.gfxtechnology.com)!
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Lawrence Lile" <LLile at projsolco.com>
> > > To: "David Seth Melchert" <dmelchert at earthlink.net>; "Greenbuilder
> list"
> > > <greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 7:33 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] [BULK] Radiant heat boiler
> > >
> > >
> > > > Well, a shower head is about 3 GPM, you can figure your peak flow
> from
> > > > there.  For the most part, people don't use the shower and the sink
> at
> > > > the same time in one bathroom, and the shower generally can't be
> used
> >at
> > > > the same time as the tub.  You can also figure peak flows from the
> > > > number of occupants - are there enough people in the house to take 3
> > > > showers at a time?  People may also use the washer and dishwasher at
>
> >the
> > > > same time as a bath.  In my current house, they won't do this more
> >than
> > > > once, since we have a wimpy tankless that can't keep up with more
> than
> > > > one load at a go.  Brrr.
> > > >
> > > > In my new house, a Tagaki jr, model is keeping up with two showers
> at
> > > > once.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > If these bathrooms are not grouped, or if the kitchen is not nearby,
> > > > you'll want two sources of hot water.  A typical tankless heater has
> > > > several seconds of delay (My tagaki waits 6 seconds before firing)
> >plus
> > > > the long run, can mean minutes of wait to get hot water.  The buffer
> > > > tank sounds like a good idea actually - I was considering putting
> > > > something like that in a kitchen that has the long run problem.  Add
> > > > extra insulation to whatever the manufacturer thought was enough,
> > > > because the buffer tank defeats some of the savings associated with
> >the
> > > > tankless.
> > > >
> > > > I can't imagine 3 tankless heaters, seems pretty excessive.  Do the
> >math
> > > > and see what you come up with.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Lawrence Lile, P.E., LEED AP
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> > > > [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of David
> >Seth
> > > > Melchert
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 6:04 PM
> > > > To: Greenbuilder list
> > > > Subject: [BULK] [Greenbuilding] Radiant heat boiler
> > > > Importance: Low
> > > >
> > > > We have started a large residential remodel in Orinda, CA. The 2,800
>
> >sf
> > > > house will be heated with radiant floor heat. We were planning to
> use
> >a
> > > > Baxi Luna 330 instant heater for combined radiant and domestic hot
> > > > water. I really love the Baxi Luna for its compact design and
> >simplicity
> > > >
> > > > of installation, not to mention its general high efficiency.
> > > >
> > > > However we are concerned about its capacity to serve the demands of
> a
> >3
> > > > bath house. The homeowner consulted with a supplier who suggested
> that
> >5
> > > >
> > > > gpm, delta 70 degrees is the minimum required, more than the 144,000
> > > > BTU's the Baxi Luna provides. Baxi has a new Modula supplemental
> tank
> > > > that holds 21 gallons and serves as a kind of buffer for temporary
> >high
> > > > demands. My homeowner is concerned this will not cut it. They are
> >edging
> > > >
> > > > towards having separate heat sources, such as a Noritz or an
> efficient
> > > > large tank for DHW.
> > > >
> > > > Here are my questions: how many gpm should we figure for hot water
> >needs
> > > >
> > > > at any one time, and how often might a family of four run into
> > > > insufficient hot water using the Baxi? Would you agree that
> providing
> > > > separate heat sources for radiant and DHW would be the best path?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > >
> > > > Seth Melchert
> > > > Oakland CA
> > > > _______________________________________________
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>
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