[Greenbuilding] [BULK] Re: Window moisture problems
Lawrence Lile
LLile at projsolco.com
Tue Jul 31 10:51:09 EDT 2007
>All this discussion on window moisture problems makes me wonder. Would
exterior insulating shutters solve this by keeping the window around the
interior temperature and therefore largely reduce condensation concerns?
Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: Exterior insulation has the advantage of screening out
sun, which can cook or in extreme cases even crack your windows. On the
other hand, the shutter experiences larger forces due to wind, moisture
variations which cause warpage, insect problems, critter problems, and
so on. I've seen a relatively successful system at a friends house that
used aluminum channel frames, aluminum metal panels, backed by R-Max
foil faced foam. These hinge at the bottom of the window, and a simple
rope runs through a hole in the wall to put them up. They are 30 years
old now, and he's going to get rid of them, but the've been used
regularly the whole time. This arrangement has the advantage of
reflecting more heat into the house. Even made of aluminum, they are
kinda heavy.
Contrast hauling up that thing every night with pulling the string on a
window quilt, and you can see why people try to go on the inside. I
agree that, technically, exterior shutters can have a lot of advantages,
but practically, they often miss the mark.
Lawrence Lile, PE, LEED AP
Project Solutions Engineering
-----Original Message-----
From: greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of Michael
dunn
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 7:46 PM
To: greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org
Subject: [BULK] Re: [Greenbuilding] Window moisture problems
Importance: Low
All this discussion on window moisture problems makes me wonder. Would
exterior insulating shutters solve this by keeping the window around the
interior temperature and therefore largely reduce condensation concerns?
Granted an exterior insulating shutter that will last is harder to build
than an interior one.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of
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Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 9:10 AM
To: greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org
Subject: Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 13, Issue 43
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Indoor Shutters, etc. (gromette at frontier.net)
2. Re: Indoor Shutters, etc. (Robert Waldrop)
3. Re: Indoor Shutters, etc. (Keith Winston)
4. HVAC (Curt Sommer)
5. Re: HVAC (wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net)
6. Re: HVAC (Bobbi Chukran)
7. Re: Window moisture problems (Sacie Lambertson)
8. Re: HVAC (Sacie Lambertson)
9. Re: Window moisture problems (bilrob at silcom.com)
10. Re: Window moisture problems (Ted Inoue)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 12:20:28 -0600
From: gromette at frontier.net
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Indoor Shutters, etc.
To: greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org
Message-ID:
<20070729122028.13jtwwuv4wgwcg08 at webmail.brainstorminternet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
format="flowed"
Careful with those indoor insulated shutters.
After building on to our passive solar house in Gunnison,
CO, (very cold winters) we created insulated panels for
our east facing trapezoidal (is that a word?) windows.
These were 2 in. blue foam faced with hardboard and
covered with batting and cotton cloth. Things of beauty.
We set them in the window sills in November and left them
there. They were great.
When the winter broke and we had our first "warm" March
day, we heard two loud POPs late one morning in rather
quick succession. It took us a while to realize our
windows had shattered, apparently from temperature
differential. Uh...we don't use those any more.
I also created several "Warm Window" window coverings,
probably similar to Target's window quilts. These also
do a good job of keeping the warm air in/cold air out,
but they cause major condensation on the windows, and
as a result we have daily pools of water on the wooden
sills. The Warm Windows are still there, but I keep them
raised about 12 inches. I'll be switching those out soon,
too.
Just thought you might like to know...
Cate 29-jul-07
> Robert sez:
> We have been experimenting with
> indoor shutters.
> "
>
>>
>> I don't know about window quilts, I take it they are very
>> expensive compared to a DIY removable panel.
>>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 21:58:31 -0500
From: "Robert Waldrop" <bwaldrop at cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Indoor Shutters, etc.
To: <greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>
Message-ID: <02df01c7d255$83599dd0$6400a8c0 at bobcomputer>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
We haven't seen this problem with our test
shutters over the 2 winters we've used our present
version or the hmmm four winters we used one or
more of the "foam board in wood box" version.
Perhaps because our winters are not as cold as
Gunnison? I lived in Lake City in the mid-70s and
went to college in Gunnison. I remember those
winters. Brrrr.
What are you replacing these window treatments
with?
Bob Waldrop, Oklahoma City
----- Original Message -----
From: <gromette at frontier.net>
> Careful with those indoor insulated shutters.
>
> After building on to our passive solar house in
> Gunnison,
> CO, (very cold winters) we created insulated
> panels for
> our east facing trapezoidal (is that a word?)
> windows.
> These were 2 in. blue foam faced with hardboard
> and
> covered with batting and cotton cloth. Things of
> beauty.
> We set them in the window sills in November and
> left them
> there. They were great.
>
> When the winter broke and we had our first
> "warm" March
> day, we heard two loud POPs late one morning in
> rather
> quick succession. It took us a while to realize
> our
> windows had shattered, apparently from
> temperature
> differential. Uh...we don't use those any more.
>
> I also created several "Warm Window" window
> coverings,
> probably similar to Target's window quilts.
> These also
> do a good job of keeping the warm air in/cold
> air out,
> but they cause major condensation on the
> windows, and
> as a result we have daily pools of water on the
> wooden
> sills. The Warm Windows are still there, but I
> keep them
> raised about 12 inches. I'll be switching those
> out soon,
> too.
>
> Just thought you might like to know...
>
> Cate 29-jul-07
>
>> Robert sez:
>> We have been experimenting with
>> indoor shutters.
>> "
>>
>>>
>>> I don't know about window quilts, I take it
>>> they are very
>>> expensive compared to a DIY removable panel.
>>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://www.buildinggreen.com
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> and GreenSpec(r)
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> http://www.crest.org
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 23:25:38 -0400
From: Keith Winston <keith at earthsunenergy.com>
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Indoor Shutters, etc.
To: Greenbuilder list <greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>
Message-ID: <46AD5A32.5040505 at earthsunenergy.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
I'm perplexed. What do you think caused your window shattering?
Trapezoidal windows are often custom. Were these home-built/installed?
Might they have been installed too tightly, such that something
(framing, trim) expanding exploded them? I can't see why an insulated
glass window, with an insulated shutter behind it and in the sun, would
shatter... Could the metal spacer bars get hot enough to cause the
tempered glass to explode? Really hard for me to believe. I am strongly
drawn to an external thermo-mechanical cause (i.e. the framing).
I have seen a different and unrelated problem that's rather depressing.
Imagine good insulated window shade, but NOT air tight. Some small
amount of air migrates to window, carrying moisture. Insulated blind
keeps window cold. Moisture condenses, drips down, ruins frame.
Difficult problem to solve. Pella suggests keeping your house very dry
to avoid these kinds of problems, apparently...
Keith
gromette at frontier.net wrote:
> Careful with those indoor insulated shutters.
>
> After building on to our passive solar house in Gunnison,
> CO, (very cold winters) we created insulated panels for
> our east facing trapezoidal (is that a word?) windows.
> These were 2 in. blue foam faced with hardboard and
> covered with batting and cotton cloth. Things of beauty.
> We set them in the window sills in November and left them
> there. They were great.
>
> When the winter broke and we had our first "warm" March
> day, we heard two loud POPs late one morning in rather
> quick succession. It took us a while to realize our
> windows had shattered, apparently from temperature
> differential. Uh...we don't use those any more.
>
> I also created several "Warm Window" window coverings,
> probably similar to Target's window quilts. These also
> do a good job of keeping the warm air in/cold air out,
> but they cause major condensation on the windows, and
> as a result we have daily pools of water on the wooden
> sills. The Warm Windows are still there, but I keep them
> raised about 12 inches. I'll be switching those out soon,
> too.
>
> Just thought you might like to know...
>
> Cate 29-jul-07
>
>
>> Robert sez:
>> We have been experimenting with
>> indoor shutters.
>> "
>>
>>
>>> I don't know about window quilts, I take it they are very
>>> expensive compared to a DIY removable panel.
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding email list
> List info:
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_listserv.repp.or
g
> List email: Greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org
> Managed by BuildingGreen, Inc. http://www.buildinggreen.com
> publisher of Environmental Building News and GreenSpec(r)
> Hosted and archived by REPP / CREST http://www.crest.org
>
>
--
Keith Winston
Earth Sun Energy Systems
Hyattsville, MD 20781
301-980-6325
send me mail at
keith at the company below
www.EarthSunEnergy.com
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 22:55:49 -0700
From: Curt Sommer <csommer at opusnet.com>
Subject: [Greenbuilding] HVAC
To: greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org
Message-ID: <46AD7D65.20402 at opusnet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
I'm new to this discussion group so please try to refrain from excessive
flaming. But looking over several months worth of threads I don't see
any serious discussion of how people are going to heat their homes (and
cool them in some cases) when natural gas prices begin to skyrocket.
I realize this is a 'greenbuilding' list so presumably everybody is
trying to implement passive solar as much as possible, and that's
great. I'm all for passive solar. I wish I could retrofit my house
with it.
But my question is, what about the other ~9 million homes that are
already built? Is there a discussion of this topic somewhere on the
REPP site that I have overlooked? I couldn't find it if there is.
I would appreciate if someone could direct me.
Sincerely,
Curt Sommer
www.curtsommer.org
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 07:49:42 -0500
From: "wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net" <wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] HVAC
To: Curt Sommer <csommer at opusnet.com>
Cc: greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org
Message-ID: <46ADDE66.7020307 at sbcglobal.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Curt, this question doesn't deserve flaming. To me it is more important
than how we build demonstration new buildings because it effects so many
more of our population than those in the market for new homes. And
because most existing buildings were built under conditions of low
priced energy, this is also the market with the lowest hanging fruit.
It won't surprise you that before you size and buy a new heat source of
any kind, your dollar is best spent doing everything you can to tighten
up, insulate its shell and replace its energy hogs. There are dozens of
check lists of energy efficiency priorities. You might start with :
www.eere.*energy*.*gov*/ or www.*energy*star.*gov*/. Amory Lovins
always gave the best explanation in saying that if, while in the tub,
you find that you can't keep it warm, you buy a $1 stopper before you
buy a bigger water heater.
This list also discusses many of these issues.
Bill Dorsett
Sunwrights
Manhattan, Ks
Curt Sommer wrote:
> I'm new to this discussion group so please try to refrain from
excessive
> flaming. But looking over several months worth of threads I don't see
> any serious discussion of how people are going to heat their homes
(and
> cool them in some cases) when natural gas prices begin to skyrocket.
>
> I realize this is a 'greenbuilding' list so presumably everybody is
> trying to implement passive solar as much as possible, and that's
> great. I'm all for passive solar. I wish I could retrofit my house
> with it.
>
> But my question is, what about the other ~9 million homes that are
> already built? Is there a discussion of this topic somewhere on the
> REPP site that I have overlooked? I couldn't find it if there is.
>
> I would appreciate if someone could direct me.
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
> Curt Sommer
> www.curtsommer.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding email list
> List info:
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_listserv.repp.or
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> List email: Greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org
> Managed by BuildingGreen, Inc. http://www.buildinggreen.com
> publisher of Environmental Building News and GreenSpec(r)
> Hosted and archived by REPP / CREST http://www.crest.org
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 08:27:56 -0500
From: Bobbi Chukran <bobbi at bobbichukran.com>
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] HVAC
To: greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org
Message-ID: <f06200703c2d397a86ca7@[192.168.1.100]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
>It won't surprise you that before you size and buy a new heat source of
>any kind, your dollar is best spent doing everything you can to tighten
>up, insulate its shell and replace its energy hogs.
>
Good point, but down here in Texas, the first thing that crosses our
minds is *cooling*...not heating.
Still, some good links and information!
bobbi c.
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 08:43:07 -0600
From: Sacie Lambertson <sacie.lambertson at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Window moisture problems
To: Greenbuilder list <greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>
Message-ID: <46adfa7c.2386460a.5021.ffffa5b7 at mx.google.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed;
x-avg-checked=avg-ok-5AEE449D
At 09:25 PM 7/29/2007, Keith Winston wrote:
>Moisture condenses, drips down, ruins frame.
>Difficult problem to solve. Pella suggests keeping your house very dry
>to avoid these kinds of problems, apparently...
We have Pella windows and the interior condensation is a real
problem in the winter. We have a lot of art in the house so hate to
drop the humidity. Some of the bases of our interior windows in some
areas have lost their original finish because of the moisture. I
mean to apply marine varnish when a good time comes to take care of the
task.
And speaking of Pella, numbers of our windows are the largest they
allow for an operable window. The hinges on these are definitely not
sufficient for the weight/size of the window. I would urge anyone
designing operable windows in a space to be aware of this issue.
Sacie
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 08:48:31 -0600
From: Sacie Lambertson <sacie.lambertson at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] HVAC
To: greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org
Message-ID: <46adfa7f.2386460a.5021.ffffa5be at mx.google.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed;
x-avg-checked=avg-ok-5AEE449D
Re the question of retrofitting an old house for energy savings, as
someone recently pointed out, the latest EBN (Environmental Building
News) devotes its main article to this issue. Sacie
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 08:02:27 -0700
From: bilrob at silcom.com
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Window moisture problems
To: Sacie Lambertson <sacie.lambertson at gmail.com>
Cc: Greenbuilder list <greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>
Message-ID: <1185807747.46adfd83ee1ba at webmail.netlojix.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
It is a dew point problem.
Consider getting a thermo hygrometer to see exactly what the RH, current
temp
and dew point is and then take action.
If you cannot lower the RH make sure there is plenty of air movement
around
the
windows. Warm air circulation and cold air moved away from the
condensing
surface.
"Wash" the windows with warm air.
Bill Robinson
Quoting Sacie Lambertson <sacie.lambertson at gmail.com>:
> At 09:25 PM 7/29/2007, Keith Winston wrote:
> >Moisture condenses, drips down, ruins frame.
> >Difficult problem to solve. Pella suggests keeping your house very
dry
> >to avoid these kinds of problems, apparently...
>
>
> We have Pella windows and the interior condensation is a real
> problem in the winter. We have a lot of art in the house so hate to
> drop the humidity. Some of the bases of our interior windows in some
> areas have lost their original finish because of the moisture. I
> mean to apply marine varnish when a good time comes to take care of
the
> task.
>
> And speaking of Pella, numbers of our windows are the largest they
> allow for an operable window. The hinges on these are definitely not
> sufficient for the weight/size of the window. I would urge anyone
> designing operable windows in a space to be aware of this issue.
Sacie
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding email list
> List info:
>
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_listserv.repp.or
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> List email: Greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org
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> publisher of Environmental Building News and GreenSpec(r)
> Hosted and archived by REPP / CREST http://www.crest.org
>
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 11:10:02 -0400
From: "Ted Inoue" <tedinoue at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Window moisture problems
To: "bilrob at silcom.com" <bilrob at silcom.com>
Cc: Greenbuilder list <greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>
Message-ID:
<50d688f80707300810k4340addkd274d8b92960459b at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
exactly. However it's a catch-22.
You insulate the window from the living space with thermal shade and the
temp of the window drops. The better the insulation, the closer the
window
gets to outdoor temp. Looking at your psychrometric tables will show you
that it doesn't take much of a temp drop to hit the dew point if the
interior is 70F @ the recommended 30-60% RH.
So then you circulate warm air to the window. Now you're disturbing the
insulating air layer that you want to be as still as possible to improve
the
R-value of the window. The result is that you're making the window even
less
thermally efficient than rated.
I've taken to closing my thermal shades at night, keeping the RH on the
low
side where possible, then immediately cleaning condensation off the
window
in the morning. Plus, a high quality urethane (I use a great water based
product) on the sills works great to avoid water damage.
On 7/30/07, bilrob at silcom.com <bilrob at silcom.com> wrote:
>
> It is a dew point problem.
> Consider getting a thermo hygrometer to see exactly what the RH,
current
> temp
> and dew point is and then take action.
> If you cannot lower the RH make sure there is plenty of air movement
> around the
> windows. Warm air circulation and cold air moved away from the
condensing
> surface.
> "Wash" the windows with warm air.
> Bill Robinson
>
>
> Quoting Sacie Lambertson <sacie.lambertson at gmail.com>:
>
> > At 09:25 PM 7/29/2007, Keith Winston wrote:
> > >Moisture condenses, drips down, ruins frame.
> > >Difficult problem to solve. Pella suggests keeping your house very
dry
> > >to avoid these kinds of problems, apparently...
> >
> >
> > We have Pella windows and the interior condensation is a real
> > problem in the winter. We have a lot of art in the house so hate to
> > drop the humidity. Some of the bases of our interior windows in
some
> > areas have lost their original finish because of the moisture. I
> > mean to apply marine varnish when a good time comes to take care of
the
> > task.
> >
> > And speaking of Pella, numbers of our windows are the largest they
> > allow for an operable window. The hinges on these are definitely
not
> > sufficient for the weight/size of the window. I would urge anyone
> > designing operable windows in a space to be aware of this
> issue. Sacie
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Greenbuilding email list
> > List info:
> >
>
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_listserv.repp.or
g
> > List email: Greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org
> > Managed by BuildingGreen, Inc. http://www.buildinggreen.com
> > publisher of Environmental Building News and GreenSpec(r)
> > Hosted and archived by REPP / CREST http://www.crest.org
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding email list
> List info:
>
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> List email: Greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org
> Managed by BuildingGreen, Inc. http://www.buildinggreen.com
> publisher of Environmental Building News and GreenSpec(r)
> Hosted and archived by REPP / CREST http://www.crest.org
>
------------------------------
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End of Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 13, Issue 43
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