[Greenbuilding] Alternatives to Pressure Treated Wood

[Dan Antonioli]

Thanks Bill. This looks promising!

Dan Antonioli



On Oct 18, 2007, at 2:35 PM, William Updike wrote:

> I mentioned this before on this strain--if you are in
> a location where there are dealers of Envirosafe Plus
> PT, it is truly a great product and (as wood) can
> certainly be ripped down to any dimension.
>
> http://www.eswoodtreatment.com/
>
> Cheers,
> Bill Updike
>
> --- dantonioli at earthlink.net wrote:
>
>> Tim,
>>
>> "Strength" and "structural integrity" are abstract
>> terms that need to be
>> clarified when looking at the specifics of
>> materials. Plastic lumber might
>> have "strength" in certain ways, but "weakness" in
>> others. Just like all
>> materials.
>>
>> Concrete has amazing compressive strength (vertical
>> loads) and a lot less
>> "strength" when it's applied horizontally.
>>
>> My experience of working with, say, Trex, is that if
>> you use it according to
>> the manufactures guidelines it works great. But if
>> you take a "2x6" and rip
>> it down for sleepers, or rip it down at all, you're
>> "weakening" the
>> "structural integrity" of the material. Down all the
>> way to where the thin
>> end cracks and crumbles. The material simply can't
>> don't much structural
>> work when it's altered in that way. Let alone be a
>> good material for
>> attaching to other materials with screws, nails,
>> metal hardware. It won't
>> work. You could make it work for a few years but it
>> will fail, and it
>> wouldn't be ethical to use it on a project that
>> someone is paying you for,
>> expecting it to hold. Plus, if you're pulling
>> permits and doing work on the
>> radar the materials have to have ratings for the
>> ways they're used.
>>
>> You're a big advocate of plastic lumber, and this is
>> a situation where you
>> should take a very close look at my question: use of
>> materials for sleepers
>> and ripping material down to zero. If there's a
>> plastic lumber product or
>> "green lumber" available that can perform in this
>> way then I'd sure like to
>> know about it.
>>
>> As for black locust, my limited experience with it
>> tells me that it will
>> work just fine for small dimensional sleepers and
>> would be an excellent
>> replacement for pressure treated wood. But it's not
>> available commercially,
>> and least in any readily available form in the bay
>> area.
>>
>> Dan Antonioli
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> It's simply not true that plastic lumber has poor
>> strength. Folks
>> continually confuse plastic lumber with plastic
>> composite materials. They're
>> not the same and ASTM has agreed.
>>
>> True recycled plastic lumber is stronger than wood.
>> More flexible, yes. But
>> stronger (if one is considering modulus of rupture).
>>
>> tim keating
>>
>> At 12:15 AM -0400 10/9/07, Keith Winston wrote:
>>> Dan, I think me and everyone else are stalling
>> because there aren't
>>> very good options ;-)
>>>
>>> Yes, you're right sleepers are used all the time.
>> Plastic lumber
>>> typically has very poor strength, so while it might
>> be used for a
>>> sleeper design (as long as it's "full contact"),
>> I'm not sure I'd trust
>>> it structurally, from what I've seen. I sort of
>> like the concrete pier
>>> ideas, except that everything has to be quite high
>> to make space for
>>> full-fledged structural lumber in that case. If
>> you're using sleepers,
>>> you should probably try to align them with the
>> underlying framing
>>> (unless they are across it), since if you've got
>> 1/2" plywood
>>> sheathing, it might not support the weight of your
>> deck happily between
>> rafters.
>>>
>>> There is some borate & polymer treated wood that
>> I've heard about but
>>> haven't seen. It can be found here:
>>>
>>> http://www.eswoodtreatment.com/
>>>
>>> Probably won't be too easy to get locally.
>>>
>>> There is cedar or redwood or ironwood/Ipe or
>> whatever else you might
>>> find, none of which (well, maybe Ipe) could be
>> considered sustainable
>>> (the Ipe distributors say it's grown sustainably,
>> rainforest activists
>>> typically say there's no such thing as a
>> sustainably grown rainforest
>>> tree, last I heard...). Ipe is extremely hard, has
>> to be drilled to be
>>> nailed or screwed, and would be sort of painful to
>> use. Oh, and it's
>>> not available in 2x lumber I don't think. Although
>> it's extraordinarily
>> strong.
>>>
>>> There's another option on the books for pressure
>> treated wood,
>>> acetylated wood. I believe it is only currently
>> available in Europe. Go
>>> on vacation and bring some home! Take a freighter
>> and it might not be
>>> too ungreen! You can find out more here:
>>>
>>> http://www.titanwood.com/
>>>
>>> I've heard of a possible silicone treatment of some
>> type for
>>> direct-contact wood, but I haven't seen anything
>> develop for the last
>>> couple years.
>>>
>>> Good luck. Keith
>>>
>>>
>>> dantonioli at earthlink.net wrote:
>>>>  Hi Keith,
>>>>
>>>>  People keep wanting information about the
>> design, which is
>>>> understandable  but which distracts from the
>> question. The only real
>>>> alternative here that  I'm familiar with is to
>> use redwood or other
>>>> rot resitant woods. Sleepers  tapering down to
>> zero are used all the
>>>> time quite successfully....it's only  one end of
>> a tapered piece.
>>>>
>>>>  A typical "floating deck" on a roof has to
>> account for slope. Even
>> "flat"
>>>>  roofs are sloped. The point is to make a level
>> deck. If you have
>>>> plenty of  room to work with, then you can cut
>> 4x4 or 6x6 posts and
>>>> create a shoulder  to fit under sections of
>> girders, underneath a
>>>> typical framed 2x6 joist  package. The posts sit
>> on additional
>>>> roofing material and there are no  penetrations.
>> I've built several
>>>> and they're holding up just fine after a  number
>> of years, but I'm
>>>> sick and tired of using pressure treated wood in
>> this way....all the
>>>> extra ripping and treating with copper green is
>> non-green and toxic
>>>> to work with. I'm old enough to remember when all
>> we  used in
>>>> California was redwood....but it's limited,
>> politically incorrect,
>>>> and third-growth material rots out after five
>> years or so....it just
>> doesn't  hold up like old growth.
>>>>
>>>>  The only pitch for plastic lumber is coming from
>> people who have no
>>>> experience working with it!
>>>>
>>>>  Dan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  -----Original Message-----
>>>>  From: Keith Winston
>> [mailto:keith at earthsunenergy.com]
>>>>  Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 3:10 PM
>>>>  To: dantonioli at earthlink.net
>>>>  Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Alternatives to
>> Pressure Treated Wood
>>>>
>>>>  Is the corner drain under the new deck (when
>> built)?
> === message truncated ===
>
>
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