[Greenbuilding] Alternatives to Pressure Treated Wood
Tim Vireo Keating
t.keating at rainforestrelief.org
Thu Oct 18 17:42:41 EDT 2007
Keith,
I think it's simply incredible and I am sad to
see someone suggest redwood, cedar and ipê and
then suggest that the ipê (the one coming from
the old growth tropical forests that have been
evolving for 65 million years, whereas the
forests of the northwest North America are at
most 10,000 years old) might be sustainable. At
least you seem to realize that redwood and cedar
- at least from old growth - aren't. And at least
you gave some mention to environmentalists who
have said that ipê isn't sustainable.
But I am disheartened when I read so much of your post.
Why believe anything the sellers of a product
state? One would hope that folks working for
environmental groups would be trusted more than
industry people who make money from the sale of a
product, especially one where folks already know
that so much is suspect.
Ipê being sustainable is one of the biggest
industry myths perpetrated in the last three
decades. The biggest ipê importers only got into
the business after the wave of boycotts of
tropical wood and thus knew just what to say to
potential clients - "oh, don't worry, it's
*sustainable*". Never mind that they had no
evidence of this. And never mind that we and so
many others said otherwise. They had the
marketing bucks and people wanted to believe.
Further, they went ahead (after years of fighting
the idea) and got their FSC Chain-of-Custody
certificates - so that everyone can believe that
all the wood they're selling is certified,
without bothering to see the producer
certificates because most people don't know the
difference. What a great scam.
Now, architects, designers and builders can all
go around and perpetuate the myth - ipê's
sustainable, isn't it?
The truth about ipê is that 80 - 90% of it is
logged illegally, most of it is coming from
Brazil (with some now from Peru), where the
timber industry actually uses slave labor in some
cases. Much of the wood is coming from parks,
preserves and indigenous reserves. Logging in
pristine forests is the major factor leading to
the loss of rainforests as roads bulldozed by
loggers hunting high-value trees (which typically
occur only one or two individuals per acre) allow
access to further clearing. And finally,
scientific studies have shown that logging in old
growth rainforests is heavily damaging to
biodiversity and forest function, unless it
mimics natural conditions (one tree per acre *per
century*, removed by hand).
Please refrain from helping the purveyors of
rainforest death by spreading this myth in any
way, shape or form. We've come to understand that
imported imported tropical hardwoods logged from
old growth forests (that is, about 98% of
tropical wood imports) are the most hazardous
materials on Earth (in terms of impact on species
and climate change).
tim keating
At 12:15 AM -0400 10/9/07, Keith Winston wrote:
>Dan, I think me and everyone else are stalling because there aren't very
>good options ;-)
>
>Yes, you're right sleepers are used all the time. Plastic lumber
>typically has very poor strength, so while it might be used for a
>sleeper design (as long as it's "full contact"), I'm not sure I'd trust
>it structurally, from what I've seen. I sort of like the concrete pier
>ideas, except that everything has to be quite high to make space for
>full-fledged structural lumber in that case. If you're using sleepers,
>you should probably try to align them with the underlying framing
>(unless they are across it), since if you've got 1/2" plywood sheathing,
>it might not support the weight of your deck happily between rafters.
>
>There is some borate & polymer treated wood that I've heard about but
>haven't seen. It can be found here:
>
>http://www.eswoodtreatment.com/
>
>Probably won't be too easy to get locally.
>
>There is cedar or redwood or ironwood/Ipe or whatever else you might
>find, none of which (well, maybe Ipe) could be considered sustainable
>(the Ipe distributors say it's grown sustainably, rainforest activists
>typically say there's no such thing as a sustainably grown rainforest
>tree, last I heard...). Ipe is extremely hard, has to be drilled to be
>nailed or screwed, and would be sort of painful to use. Oh, and it's not
>available in 2x lumber I don't think. Although it's extraordinarily strong.
>
>There's another option on the books for pressure treated wood,
>acetylated wood. I believe it is only currently available in Europe. Go
>on vacation and bring some home! Take a freighter and it might not be
>too ungreen! You can find out more here:
>
>http://www.titanwood.com/
>
>I've heard of a possible silicone treatment of some type for
>direct-contact wood, but I haven't seen anything develop for the last
>couple years.
>
>Good luck. Keith
>
>
>dantonioli at earthlink.net wrote:
>> Hi Keith,
>>
>> People keep wanting information about the design, which is understandable
>> but which distracts from the question. The only real alternative here that
>> I'm familiar with is to use redwood or other rot resitant woods. Sleepers
>> tapering down to zero are used all the time quite successfully....it's only
>> one end of a tapered piece.
>>
>> A typical "floating deck" on a roof has to account for slope. Even "flat"
>> roofs are sloped. The point is to make a level deck. If you have plenty of
>> room to work with, then you can cut 4x4 or 6x6 posts and create a shoulder
>> to fit under sections of girders, underneath a typical framed 2x6 joist
>> package. The posts sit on additional roofing material and there are no
>> penetrations. I've built several and they're holding up just fine after a
>> number of years, but I'm sick and tired of using pressure treated wood in
>> this way....all the extra ripping and treating with copper green is
>> non-green and toxic to work with. I'm old enough to remember when all we
>> used in California was redwood....but it's limited, politically incorrect,
>> and third-growth material rots out after five years or so....it just doesn't
>> hold up like old growth.
>>
>> The only pitch for plastic lumber is coming from people who have no
>> experience working with it!
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Keith Winston [mailto:keith at earthsunenergy.com]
>> Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 3:10 PM
>> To: dantonioli at earthlink.net
>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Alternatives to Pressure Treated Wood
>>
>> Is the corner drain under the new deck (when built)? If I understand your
>> context, sounds tailor made for drain clogs. What type of roof?
>> EPDM maybe? Wood won't be strong when ripped down to nothing, like
>> everything else. You can hold the deck back from the edges, or, raise it a
>> bit, as others have suggested, and use larger framing material. Sounds like
>> a large deck, 20' x 40'? Or maybe I'm misinterpreting.
>>
>> Keith
>>
>>
>> dantonioli at earthlink.net wrote:
>>
>>> The roof deck is sloped from three directions down to a corner drain.
>>> The difference in elevation is approximately a foot, spanning a
>>> distance of twenty feet. You need a sturdy frame of joists to support
>>> an elevated deck, but as I mentioned in many areas the clearance is
>>> minimal and, thus, the need for sleepers.
>>>
>>> I've yet to see plastic lumber that can be ripped from, say, zero to
>>> three-and-a-half inches and hold its structural integrity, let alone
>>> be attached to a frame to create a rigid platform. But maybe there's a
>>> product that someone on the list has actually used in this capacity.
>>> Always checking the possibilities.
>>>
>>> Dan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org
>>> [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of Speireag
>>> Alden
>>> Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 9:00 AM
>>> To: greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Alternatives to Pressure Treated Wood
>>>
>>> Sgrìobh <dantonioli at earthlink.net>:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm considering a roofdeck project where I'll have to use a lot of
>>>> pressure treated wood as "sleepers." The surface is uneven and
>>>> there's only a few inches of clearance between the bottom of the deck
> >>> boards and the roofdeck....which means a lot of long rips through
>>>> pressure treated wood, and a lot of copper green over all of the
>>>> exposed untreated surfaces. The last time I built a deck this way I
>>>> told myself that I wouldn't do it again because working with PT this
>>>> way is unhealthy--there's a ton of pt dust, too much copper green,
>>>> and I can feel the physical effects and it sucks. I'm most likely
>>>> going to turn the
>>>>
>>>>
>>> job down but thought I'd look into options.
>>>
>>>
>>>> The question is: is there a rot resitant, structurally sound material
>>>> that can be cut and tapered? FSC wood? Exciting new composition lumber?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> There are structural plastic lumbers out there. You should be
> >> able to find them via Google.
>>>
>>> However, I'm confused about why you need them. If the clearance
>>> is that small, I'm picturing a flat roof. Why not use decking as
>>> sleepers, with shims to even things out? Then you wouldn't have to
>>> cut anything at all, except for length.
>>>
>>> What am I missing?
>>>
>>> -Speireag.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Anger, if not restrained, is frequently more hurtful to us than the
>>> injury that provokes it.
>>> --Lucius Annaeus Seneca, philosopher (BCE 3-65 CE)
>>>
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>
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measure of our bodies are the same..."
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