[Greenbuilding] Alternatives to Pressure Treated Wood
Tim Vireo Keating
t.keating at rainforestrelief.org
Sun Oct 28 21:58:41 EDT 2007
My understanding is that North America north of
the southern US was under ice about 13,000 years
ago.
And I don't recall making any reference to 160
millions years. My understanding from my research
is that tropical forests near the equators have
not experienced cataclysmic upheaval since the
time when an asteroid hit Earth, some 65 million
years ago, throwing the planet into 'nuclear'
winter and relatively quickly wiping out about
65% of then-extant species.
While ice ages have reduced the overall area of
warm tropical forests, there are areas that have
seen evolution virtually uninterrupted since that
cataclysm.
tim
At 6:48 AM -0700 10/19/07, Mary Bull - Greenwood Earth Alliance wrote:
>Tim and All,
>
>Thanks for that, Tim! But could you clarify something: I have read in
>several sources that the redwood ecosystem has been around for 160 million
>years and that it hasn't changed for the last 80 million years--was this
>when it covered much of Canada? Where do you get that North American NW
>forests are only 10,000 years old, and could you explain the 160 Million
>references?
>
>Thanks!
>
>Mary
>
>Mary Bull, Co-director
>Greenwood Earth Alliance, Save the Redwoods - Boycott the Gap Campaign
>252 Frederick, San Francisco, CA 94117 http://www.gapsucks.org
>Chalice Farm and Sustainable Living Center, 748 Montgomery Rd, Sebastopol CA
>95472
>415-731-7924 - 415-509-1188 chalicenew at earthlink.net
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Tim Vireo Keating" <t.keating at rainforestrelief.org>
>To: "Keith Winston" <keith at earthsunenergy.com>; "Greenbuilder list"
><greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>
>Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 2:42 PM
>Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Alternatives to Pressure Treated Wood
>
>
>Keith,
>
>I think it's simply incredible and I am sad to
>see someone suggest redwood, cedar and ipê and
>then suggest that the ipê (the one coming from
>the old growth tropical forests that have been
>evolving for 65 million years, whereas the
>forests of the northwest North America are at
>most 10,000 years old) might be sustainable. At
>least you seem to realize that redwood and cedar
>- at least from old growth - aren't. And at least
>you gave some mention to environmentalists who
>have said that ipê isn't sustainable.
>
>But I am disheartened when I read so much of your post.
>
>Why believe anything the sellers of a product
>state? One would hope that folks working for
>environmental groups would be trusted more than
>industry people who make money from the sale of a
>product, especially one where folks already know
>that so much is suspect.
>
>Ipê being sustainable is one of the biggest
>industry myths perpetrated in the last three
>decades. The biggest ipê importers only got into
>the business after the wave of boycotts of
>tropical wood and thus knew just what to say to
>potential clients - "oh, don't worry, it's
>*sustainable*". Never mind that they had no
>evidence of this. And never mind that we and so
>many others said otherwise. They had the
>marketing bucks and people wanted to believe.
>Further, they went ahead (after years of fighting
>the idea) and got their FSC Chain-of-Custody
>certificates - so that everyone can believe that
>all the wood they're selling is certified,
>without bothering to see the producer
>certificates because most people don't know the
>difference. What a great scam.
>
>Now, architects, designers and builders can all
>go around and perpetuate the myth - ipê's
>sustainable, isn't it?
>
>The truth about ipê is that 80 - 90% of it is
>logged illegally, most of it is coming from
>Brazil (with some now from Peru), where the
>timber industry actually uses slave labor in some
>cases. Much of the wood is coming from parks,
>preserves and indigenous reserves. Logging in
>pristine forests is the major factor leading to
>the loss of rainforests as roads bulldozed by
>loggers hunting high-value trees (which typically
>occur only one or two individuals per acre) allow
>access to further clearing. And finally,
>scientific studies have shown that logging in old
>growth rainforests is heavily damaging to
>biodiversity and forest function, unless it
>mimics natural conditions (one tree per acre *per
>century*, removed by hand).
>
>Please refrain from helping the purveyors of
>rainforest death by spreading this myth in any
>way, shape or form. We've come to understand that
>imported imported tropical hardwoods logged from
>old growth forests (that is, about 98% of
>tropical wood imports) are the most hazardous
>materials on Earth (in terms of impact on species
>and climate change).
>
>tim keating
>
>At 12:15 AM -0400 10/9/07, Keith Winston wrote:
>>Dan, I think me and everyone else are stalling because there aren't very
>>good options ;-)
>>
>>Yes, you're right sleepers are used all the time. Plastic lumber
>>typically has very poor strength, so while it might be used for a
>>sleeper design (as long as it's "full contact"), I'm not sure I'd trust
>>it structurally, from what I've seen. I sort of like the concrete pier
>>ideas, except that everything has to be quite high to make space for
>>full-fledged structural lumber in that case. If you're using sleepers,
>>you should probably try to align them with the underlying framing
>>(unless they are across it), since if you've got 1/2" plywood sheathing,
>>it might not support the weight of your deck happily between rafters.
>>
>>There is some borate & polymer treated wood that I've heard about but
>>haven't seen. It can be found here:
>>
>>http://www.eswoodtreatment.com/
>>
>>Probably won't be too easy to get locally.
>>
>>There is cedar or redwood or ironwood/Ipe or whatever else you might
>>find, none of which (well, maybe Ipe) could be considered sustainable
>>(the Ipe distributors say it's grown sustainably, rainforest activists
>>typically say there's no such thing as a sustainably grown rainforest
>>tree, last I heard...). Ipe is extremely hard, has to be drilled to be
>>nailed or screwed, and would be sort of painful to use. Oh, and it's not
>>available in 2x lumber I don't think. Although it's extraordinarily strong.
>>
>>There's another option on the books for pressure treated wood,
>>acetylated wood. I believe it is only currently available in Europe. Go
>>on vacation and bring some home! Take a freighter and it might not be
>>too ungreen! You can find out more here:
>>
>>http://www.titanwood.com/
>>
>>I've heard of a possible silicone treatment of some type for
>>direct-contact wood, but I haven't seen anything develop for the last
>>couple years.
>>
>>Good luck. Keith
>>
>>
>>dantonioli at earthlink.net wrote:
>>> Hi Keith,
>>>
>>> People keep wanting information about the design, which is
>understandable
>>> but which distracts from the question. The only real alternative here
>that
>>> I'm familiar with is to use redwood or other rot resitant woods.
>Sleepers
>>> tapering down to zero are used all the time quite successfully....it's
>only
>>> one end of a tapered piece.
>>>
>>> A typical "floating deck" on a roof has to account for slope. Even
>"flat"
>>> roofs are sloped. The point is to make a level deck. If you have plenty
>of
>>> room to work with, then you can cut 4x4 or 6x6 posts and create a
>shoulder
>>> to fit under sections of girders, underneath a typical framed 2x6 joist
>>> package. The posts sit on additional roofing material and there are no
>>> penetrations. I've built several and they're holding up just fine after
>a
>>> number of years, but I'm sick and tired of using pressure treated wood
>in
>>> this way....all the extra ripping and treating with copper green is
>>> non-green and toxic to work with. I'm old enough to remember when all we
>>> used in California was redwood....but it's limited, politically
>incorrect,
>>> and third-growth material rots out after five years or so....it just
>doesn't
>>> hold up like old growth.
>>>
>>> The only pitch for plastic lumber is coming from people who have no
>>> experience working with it!
>>>
>>> Dan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Keith Winston [mailto:keith at earthsunenergy.com]
> >> Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 3:10 PM
>>> To: dantonioli at earthlink.net
>>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Alternatives to Pressure Treated Wood
>>>
>>> Is the corner drain under the new deck (when built)? If I understand
>your
>>> context, sounds tailor made for drain clogs. What type of roof?
>>> EPDM maybe? Wood won't be strong when ripped down to nothing, like
>>> everything else. You can hold the deck back from the edges, or, raise it
>a
>>> bit, as others have suggested, and use larger framing material. Sounds
>like
>>> a large deck, 20' x 40'? Or maybe I'm misinterpreting.
>>>
>>> Keith
>>>
>>>
>>> dantonioli at earthlink.net wrote:
>>>
>>>> The roof deck is sloped from three directions down to a corner drain.
>>>> The difference in elevation is approximately a foot, spanning a
>>>> distance of twenty feet. You need a sturdy frame of joists to support
>>>> an elevated deck, but as I mentioned in many areas the clearance is
>>>> minimal and, thus, the need for sleepers.
>>>>
>>>> I've yet to see plastic lumber that can be ripped from, say, zero to
>>>> three-and-a-half inches and hold its structural integrity, let alone
>>>> be attached to a frame to create a rigid platform. But maybe there's a
>>>> product that someone on the list has actually used in this capacity.
>>>> Always checking the possibilities.
>>>>
>>>> Dan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org
>>>> [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of Speireag
>>>> Alden
>>>> Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 9:00 AM
>>>> To: greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Alternatives to Pressure Treated Wood
>>>>
>>>> Sgrìobh <dantonioli at earthlink.net>:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I'm considering a roofdeck project where I'll have to use a lot of
>>>>> pressure treated wood as "sleepers." The surface is uneven and
>>>>> there's only a few inches of clearance between the bottom of the deck
>> >>> boards and the roofdeck....which means a lot of long rips through
>>>>> pressure treated wood, and a lot of copper green over all of the
>>>>> exposed untreated surfaces. The last time I built a deck this way I
>>>>> told myself that I wouldn't do it again because working with PT this
>>>>> way is unhealthy--there's a ton of pt dust, too much copper green,
>>>>> and I can feel the physical effects and it sucks. I'm most likely
>>>>> going to turn the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> job down but thought I'd look into options.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The question is: is there a rot resitant, structurally sound material
>>>>> that can be cut and tapered? FSC wood? Exciting new composition
>lumber?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> There are structural plastic lumbers out there. You should be
>> >> able to find them via Google.
>>>>
>>>> However, I'm confused about why you need them. If the clearance
>>>> is that small, I'm picturing a flat roof. Why not use decking as
>>>> sleepers, with shims to even things out? Then you wouldn't have to
>>>> cut anything at all, except for length.
>>>>
>>>> What am I missing?
>>>>
>>>> -Speireag.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Anger, if not restrained, is frequently more hurtful to us than the
>>>> injury that provokes it.
>>>> --Lucius Annaeus Seneca, philosopher (BCE 3-65 CE)
>>>>
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>--
>
>
>"The Earth and myself are of one mind. The measure of the land and the
>measure of our bodies are the same..."
> - Hinmaton Yalatkit, Nez Perce chief
>____________________________________________
>
>R A I N F O R E S T R E L I E F
>
>Sparing the World's Rainforests from Consumption
>
>Rainforest Relief works to protect the world's remaining tropical
>and temperate rainforests by reducing the demand for the products
>and materials of rainforest destruction such as timber and paper,
>industrial agricultural products such as bananas, beef, coffee,
>chocolate and cut flowers, and mining products
>such as oil, gold and aluminum.
>
>New York, NY: (917) 543-4064
>Portland, OR: (503) 236-3031
>http://www.rainforestrelief.org
>info at rainforestrelief.org
>Church Street Station * PO Box 298 * NY, NY 10008-0298
>
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"The Earth and myself are of one mind. The measure of the land and the
measure of our bodies are the same..."
- Hinmaton Yalatkit, Nez Perce chief
____________________________________________
R A I N F O R E S T R E L I E F
Sparing the World's Rainforests from Consumption
Rainforest Relief works to protect the world's remaining tropical
and temperate rainforests by reducing the demand for the products
and materials of rainforest destruction such as timber and paper,
industrial agricultural products such as bananas, beef, coffee,
chocolate and cut flowers, and mining products
such as oil, gold and aluminum.
New York, NY: (917) 543-4064
Portland, OR: (503) 236-3031
http://www.rainforestrelief.org
info at rainforestrelief.org
Church Street Station * PO Box 298 * NY, NY 10008-0298
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