[Greenbuilding] On Insulating Crawlspaces and Basements: BAD FOAM!

Mon Sep 10 00:27:42 EDT 2007

Your EPA GWP of 120-12000 is unnecessarily broad. The HFC's used are 
specifically listed in some of the MSDS's, including I think R134. In 
any case, as I'd said, the GWP of them is between 1500-2000. Which is 
where my numbers came from, and otherwise agrees with your math. If you 
do the math for how much ONE 600 board foot foam kit might hope to avert 
(foaming an entire house might take 10 or more kits, careful air sealing 
alone might be done with much less), each kit is going to be around a 
year's worth of total average carbon equivalent. If you're going to 
insulate and heat efficiently, it's simply unlikely the foam will offset 
that, and in any case it's a rotten choice amongst the choices you have. 
IMO.

Keith

Thomas Lewis wrote:
> Thank you for the warning.
>  I checked, 
>
> tiger foam msds states  
> component A: 5-10% HFC
> Component B: 10-30% HFC
> They say each tank weighs 62lbs.
>
> I'm not sure if you can do the math this way but
> pretend the tank itself weighs 10 lbs.
>
> that means HFC from tank A is 52lbs * .075 = 3.9lbs
> Tank b = 52 lbs * .20 = 10.4lbs
>
> so 14.3 lbs * 5x10^-4 = .007 short tons * .9072 = .006
> metric tons HFC = 6x10^-9 mmt HFC
> EPA lists GWP for HFC at 120-12000
> so 6x10^-9 * 120 = 7.2*10^-7 mmt co2 equiv
>            * 12000 = 7.2*10^-5 mmt co2 equiv
> so .72 to 720 metric tons CO2 equiv.
>
> basically +- an order of magnitude from kieth's
> calculation.
>
> conversion factors from
>  <http://www.epa.gov/appdstar/pdf/brochure.pdf>
>
> However,
> It may not be all that bad to use. I don't think Kieth
> considered the amount of heating I will do to the
> planet.  If I heat the planet with my propellants and
> insulate better, I will significantly reduce the
> amount of fuel required to heat my home, maybe enough
> to offset the GWP of the propellants. ;-)
>
>
> anyhoo,  I guess I won't be using those tanks.  I
> guess there isn't anyone out there who makes tanks
> without the hfc's?
>
> best,
> tom
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Keith Winston <keith at earthsunenergy.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> I don't have time to comment on your crawlspace
>> issue, but I will say:
>>
>> Don't use TigerFoam, HandiFoam, and all other 2-part
>> builder-applied 
>> foams. Also, don't use contractors who use Dow
>> FrothPak, which is the 
>> same type of foam but in addition to small builder
>> packages is sometimes 
>> blown from trucks in large volumes.
>>
>> All these use refrigerants as blowing agents. They
>> release 7-15 lbs of 
>> refrigerants  (typically HFC's) for each 600 sf
>> (board foot) package. 
>> The Global Warming Potential (CO2 equivalency) of
>> these refrigerants is 
>> around 1500-2000, which means that those (nominal)
>> 10 lbs are equivalent 
>> to about 7-10 TONS of CO2 release. That will
>> counteract at least the 
>> majority of your CO2 reductions resulting from
>> better insulating.
>>
>> I think this is a scandal that needs to be exposed.
>> I have been talking 
>> about it with many people (including people in the
>> industry), but 
>> haven't really figured out how to get word out.
>> Until/unless we regulate 
>> carbon emissions, there are no regulatory tools to
>> apply (the 
>> manufacturers changed from CFC's and HCFC's as
>> blowing agents to avoid 
>> Ozone/Montreal Protocol problems).
>>
>> "Good" PU foams are blown using a proportioner with
>> heated hoses in a 
>> truck, and water is the blowing agent. Even the
>> little one-part PU foam 
>> cans from Home Depot, etc, are powered by isobutane
>> or other simple 
>> hydrocarbons with relatively low GWP.
>>
>> I am now accepting donations to my legal defense
>> fund ;-)
>>
>> If I have anything wrong here, I'd love to know.
>> Constituents can be 
>> (roughly) determined from MSDS sheets for foam
>> products.
>>
>> Keith
>>
>>
>> Thomas Lewis wrote:
>>     
>>> Hello All, 
>>>
>>> I just purchased a home and am developing my
>>>       
>> project
>>     
>>> list.   
>>>
>>> I would like to pose my plan for insulating the
>>> crawlspace and basement for your comment.
>>>
>>> The crawlspace is ~180ft2 with a dry layed stone
>>> foundation of unknown depth and ~2' thick.  It has
>>> been worked on over the years.  The exterior is
>>> pointed with a layer of stucco over that and two
>>> sections have been replaced with 8" masonry block.
>>>       
>>> One section is a corner and the other is a four
>>>       
>> foot
>>     
>>> section with a vent.     
>>> The crawlspace has ~6" - 36" clearance from grade
>>>       
>> to
>>     
>>> floor joist, all above exterior grade.
>>>
>>> The location is hudson valley ny, on top of a hill
>>> with clay soil, NE exposure.  The soil in the
>>> crawlspace appears to remain moist much of the
>>>       
>> time,
>>     
>>> but has not been wet yet and there are no signs of
>>> water damage on wood laying in there.  However,
>>>       
>> wood
>>     
>>> that is partially embedded in the ground is moist
>>>       
>> but
>>     
>>> with no signs of fungal or mold activity.
>>>
>>> My idea is to spray foam with 1.75 lb tiger foam.
>>>       
>> (I
>>     
>>> may just hire our local spray foam guys to do
>>>       
>> this,
>>     
>>> being that they have air supply masks et al) 
>>>       
>> Clean up
>>     
>>> all debris and remove a layer of soil, which is
>>> pitched to the center of the room from all points.
>>>       
>>  I
>>     
>>> will then dig a trench in the center, pour a small
>>> footing for a center post, repost the center
>>>       
>> support,
>>     
>>> then lay gravel in the trench and over cleaned
>>>       
>> floor,
>>     
>>> then cover the floor with polyethylene with
>>>       
>> standard
>>     
>>> lapping and sealing details.
>>> Based on lack of evidence of water, other than
>>>       
>> ground
>>     
>>> moisture, and the prospect of installing one into
>>>       
>> a
>>     
>>> place that I can barely roll over in when laying
>>> prone, I am opting to not put in a sump pump.
>>>
>>> I will install a 6" round, the kind with a
>>>       
>> weighted
>>     
>>> baffel, heated air supply to the space, with a
>>>       
>> return.
>>     
>>>  The basement is loosely connected to the air
>>>       
>> supply
>>     
>>> system, there is one 6" supply and one 8" return
>>>       
>> down
>>     
>>> there.  If I return the crawlspace air to the
>>> basement, will I pressurize the basement and
>>> depressurize the living space?  Its an old loose
>>> house, with many places where air moves between
>>> floors.  (I imagine the stack effect is pretty
>>> substatial here)
>>>
>>>
>>> I am haveing a bit more trouble planning for the
>>> basement insulation.  
>>>
>>> Here I have 8' ceilings, the first four feet is
>>>       
>> stone,
>>     
>>> then on top of that I have brick.  The stone is
>>>       
>> below
>>     
>>> exterior grade and the brick generally starts 6"
>>>       
>> below
>>     
>>> grade and goes to 3' above grade.  I was thinking
>>>       
>> of
>>     
>>> repointing the interior where necessary, then
>>>       
>> spraying
>>     
>>> 2 lb. foam on the stone (~3") and a thin (3"?)
>>>       
>> layer
>>     
>>> of 0.5 lb. on the brick.  
>>> .5 lb on the brick because I am concerned with
>>> reducing the brick's drying capability and with it
>>> getting too cold during the winter.  My thought is
>>> that if I insulate alot, it will be harder for the
>>> brick to dry and the exterior will get colder
>>>       
>> during
>>     
>>> winter and may damage the brick.
>>>
>>>
>>> My apologies, this email seems to have gotten
>>>       
>> rather
>>     
>>> long. Thanks for reading it and in advance for any
>>> advice you may have.
>>>
>>> Best, 
>>> Tom Lewis
>>>
>>>
>>> "Time makes more converts than reason."  Thomas
>>>       
>> Paine, Common Sense
>>     
>>>        
>>>
>>>       
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> "Time makes more converts than reason."  Thomas Paine, Common Sense
>
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