[Greenbuilding] On Insulating Crawlspaces and Basements: BAD FOAM!
Thomas Lewis
plea_4peace at yahoo.com
Mon Sep 10 06:54:08 EDT 2007
Your right, 134, I didn't know what that number was
for, What does LC 50 mean, with 50 as subscript?
It appears a rotten choice to me as well, I may try
and do some comparisons later this week, if it's
equivalent to me driving to work for a day, flying to
costa rica, driving to adirondacks, you know something
to make that number tangible.
What other options do you suggest?
I know I have the option to have a proff with his
truck come, I know a company that uses water as the
blowing agent, But is there any thing else out there?
Best,
Tom
--- Keith Winston <keith at earthsunenergy.com> wrote:
> Your EPA GWP of 120-12000 is unnecessarily broad.
> The HFC's used are
> specifically listed in some of the MSDS's, including
> I think R134. In
> any case, as I'd said, the GWP of them is between
> 1500-2000. Which is
> where my numbers came from, and otherwise agrees
> with your math. If you
> do the math for how much ONE 600 board foot foam kit
> might hope to avert
> (foaming an entire house might take 10 or more kits,
> careful air sealing
> alone might be done with much less), each kit is
> going to be around a
> year's worth of total average carbon equivalent. If
> you're going to
> insulate and heat efficiently, it's simply unlikely
> the foam will offset
> that, and in any case it's a rotten choice amongst
> the choices you have.
> IMO.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Thomas Lewis wrote:
> > Thank you for the warning.
> > I checked,
> >
> > tiger foam msds states
> > component A: 5-10% HFC
> > Component B: 10-30% HFC
> > They say each tank weighs 62lbs.
> >
> > I'm not sure if you can do the math this way but
> > pretend the tank itself weighs 10 lbs.
> >
> > that means HFC from tank A is 52lbs * .075 =
> 3.9lbs
> > Tank b = 52 lbs * .20 = 10.4lbs
> >
> > so 14.3 lbs * 5x10^-4 = .007 short tons * .9072 =
> .006
> > metric tons HFC = 6x10^-9 mmt HFC
> > EPA lists GWP for HFC at 120-12000
> > so 6x10^-9 * 120 = 7.2*10^-7 mmt co2 equiv
> > * 12000 = 7.2*10^-5 mmt co2 equiv
> > so .72 to 720 metric tons CO2 equiv.
> >
> > basically +- an order of magnitude from kieth's
> > calculation.
> >
> > conversion factors from
> > <http://www.epa.gov/appdstar/pdf/brochure.pdf>
> >
> > However,
> > It may not be all that bad to use. I don't think
> Kieth
> > considered the amount of heating I will do to the
> > planet. If I heat the planet with my propellants
> and
> > insulate better, I will significantly reduce the
> > amount of fuel required to heat my home, maybe
> enough
> > to offset the GWP of the propellants. ;-)
> >
> >
> > anyhoo, I guess I won't be using those tanks. I
> > guess there isn't anyone out there who makes tanks
> > without the hfc's?
> >
> > best,
> > tom
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Keith Winston <keith at earthsunenergy.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> I don't have time to comment on your crawlspace
> >> issue, but I will say:
> >>
> >> Don't use TigerFoam, HandiFoam, and all other
> 2-part
> >> builder-applied
> >> foams. Also, don't use contractors who use Dow
> >> FrothPak, which is the
> >> same type of foam but in addition to small
> builder
> >> packages is sometimes
> >> blown from trucks in large volumes.
> >>
> >> All these use refrigerants as blowing agents.
> They
> >> release 7-15 lbs of
> >> refrigerants (typically HFC's) for each 600 sf
> >> (board foot) package.
> >> The Global Warming Potential (CO2 equivalency) of
> >> these refrigerants is
> >> around 1500-2000, which means that those
> (nominal)
> >> 10 lbs are equivalent
> >> to about 7-10 TONS of CO2 release. That will
> >> counteract at least the
> >> majority of your CO2 reductions resulting from
> >> better insulating.
> >>
> >> I think this is a scandal that needs to be
> exposed.
> >> I have been talking
> >> about it with many people (including people in
> the
> >> industry), but
> >> haven't really figured out how to get word out.
> >> Until/unless we regulate
> >> carbon emissions, there are no regulatory tools
> to
> >> apply (the
> >> manufacturers changed from CFC's and HCFC's as
> >> blowing agents to avoid
> >> Ozone/Montreal Protocol problems).
> >>
> >> "Good" PU foams are blown using a proportioner
> with
> >> heated hoses in a
> >> truck, and water is the blowing agent. Even the
> >> little one-part PU foam
> >> cans from Home Depot, etc, are powered by
> isobutane
> >> or other simple
> >> hydrocarbons with relatively low GWP.
> >>
> >> I am now accepting donations to my legal defense
> >> fund ;-)
> >>
> >> If I have anything wrong here, I'd love to know.
> >> Constituents can be
> >> (roughly) determined from MSDS sheets for foam
> >> products.
> >>
> >> Keith
> >>
> >>
> >> Thomas Lewis wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hello All,
> >>>
> >>> I just purchased a home and am developing my
> >>>
> >> project
> >>
> >>> list.
> >>>
> >>> I would like to pose my plan for insulating the
> >>> crawlspace and basement for your comment.
> >>>
> >>> The crawlspace is ~180ft2 with a dry layed stone
> >>> foundation of unknown depth and ~2' thick. It
> has
> >>> been worked on over the years. The exterior is
> >>> pointed with a layer of stucco over that and two
> >>> sections have been replaced with 8" masonry
> block.
> >>>
> >>> One section is a corner and the other is a four
> >>>
> >> foot
> >>
> >>> section with a vent.
> >>> The crawlspace has ~6" - 36" clearance from
> grade
> >>>
> >> to
> >>
> >>> floor joist, all above exterior grade.
> >>>
> >>> The location is hudson valley ny, on top of a
> hill
> >>> with clay soil, NE exposure. The soil in the
> >>> crawlspace appears to remain moist much of the
> >>>
> >> time,
> >>
> >>> but has not been wet yet and there are no signs
> of
> >>> water damage on wood laying in there. However,
> >>>
> >> wood
> >>
> >>> that is partially embedded in the ground is
> moist
> >>>
> >> but
> >>
> >>> with no signs of fungal or mold activity.
> >>>
> >>> My idea is to spray foam with 1.75 lb tiger
> foam.
> >>>
> >> (I
> >>
> >>> may just hire our local spray foam guys to do
> >>>
> >> this,
> >>
> >>> being that they have air supply masks et al)
> >>>
> >> Clean up
> >>
> >>> all debris and remove a layer of soil, which is
> >>> pitched to the center of the room from all
> points.
> >>>
> >> I
> >>
> >>> will then dig a trench in the center, pour a
> small
> >>> footing for a center post, repost the center
> >>>
> >> support,
> >>
> >>> then lay gravel in the trench and over cleaned
> >>>
> >> floor,
> >>
> >>> then cover the floor with polyethylene with
> >>>
> >> standard
> >>
> >>> lapping and sealing details.
> >>> Based on lack of evidence of water, other than
> >>>
> >> ground
> >>
> >>> moisture, and the prospect of installing one
> into
> >>>
> >> a
> >>
> >>> place that I can barely roll over in when laying
> >>> prone, I am opting to not put in a sump pump.
> >>>
> >>> I will install a 6" round, the kind with a
> >>>
> >> weighted
> >>
> >>> baffel, heated air supply to the space, with a
> >>>
> >> return.
> >>
> >>> The basement is loosely connected to the air
> >>>
> >> supply
> >>
> >>> system, there is one 6" supply and one 8" return
> >>>
> >> down
> >>
> >>> there. If I return the crawlspace air to the
> >>> basement, will I pressurize the basement and
> >>> depressurize the living space? Its an old loose
> >>> house, with many places where air moves between
> >>> floors. (I imagine the stack effect is pretty
> >>> substatial here)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I am haveing a bit more trouble planning for the
> >>> basement insulation.
> >>>
> >>> Here I have 8' ceilings, the first four feet is
> >>>
> >> stone,
> >>
> >>> then on top of that I have brick. The stone is
> >>>
> >> below
> >>
> >>> exterior grade and the brick generally starts 6"
> >>>
> >> below
> >>
> >>> grade and goes to 3' above grade. I was
> thinking
> >>>
> >> of
> >>
> >>> repointing the interior where necessary, then
> >>>
> >> spraying
> >>
> >>> 2 lb. foam on the stone (~3") and a thin (3"?)
> >>>
> >> layer
> >>
> >>> of 0.5 lb. on the brick.
> >>> .5 lb on the brick because I am concerned with
> >>> reducing the brick's drying capability and with
> it
> >>> getting too cold during the winter. My thought
> is
> >>> that if I insulate alot, it will be harder for
> the
> >>> brick to dry and the exterior will get colder
> >>>
> >> during
> >>
> >>> winter and may damage the brick.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> My apologies, this email seems to have gotten
> >>>
> >> rather
> >>
> >>> long. Thanks for reading it and in advance for
> any
> >>> advice you may have.
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>> Tom Lewis
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> "Time makes more converts than reason." Thomas
> >>>
> >> Paine, Common Sense
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
>
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> >
> >
> > "Time makes more converts than reason." Thomas
> Paine, Common Sense
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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