[Greenbuilding] cost of electric versus natural gas and gasoline

[Keith Winston]

I'll observe that this conversation has bifurcated:

The original question was about "which is cheaper", and the responses 
brought in efficiencies to better answer that question.

The efficiency conversation then branched into generation efficiency. In 
principle, of course, everything you need to know about generation 
efficiency is visible in the price (I mean, that's what Capitalism is 
for, right?)... though there may be minor externalities like climate 
change and the end of the world as we know it...

This is why one might consider the carbon footprints of different 
options, for example, as well as or instead of economic valuation in 
some cases. But that doesn't necessarily relate to paying the bills this 
year.

Just wanted to clarify, in case this wasn't all obvious to everyone.

Keith


Bob Korves wrote:
> Efficiency losses also occur in the case of oil (and propane), which must be 
> extracted, transported, refined, (liquified), stored, and transported --  
> much less so in the case of natural gas.  Or course, if your electic power 
> comes from fossil fuels then some of this efficiency loss will need to be 
> considered there, too, but not all electricity comes from fossil fuels.  The 
> calculations can get pretty involved, especially if the embodied energy 
> costs of drilling, mining, infrastructure, and the like are considered, as 
> they properly should be.  It isn't all about dollars...
> -Bob Korves
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Reuben Deumling" <9watts at gmail.com>
> To: "Ted Inoue" <tedinoue at gmail.com>
> Cc: "Greenbuilder list" <GREENBUILDING at listserv.repp.org>
> Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 8:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] cost of electric versus natural gas and 
> gasoline
>
>
>   
>> On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 5:10 AM, Ted Inoue <tedinoue at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> Ben,
>>> For a comparison like this, one must also consider the efficiencies of 
>>> the
>>> energy conversions involved as that makes a substantial difference in the
>>> outcome of the comparisons.
>>>
>>>       
>> This is a very important point, and doing so will reveal that the 100%
>> efficient electric energy (measured at the level of your house) must--as
>> others have pointed out on this list in the past--be multiplied by the
>> efficiency with which coal or natural gas or oil was burned at the power
>> plant where the electricity that is delivered to your house was produced.
>> Commonly this is assumed to be somewhere around 35% or .35.  Transmission
>> and distribution losses are commonly also tallied in the case of
>> electricity.
>>
>>     
>>> For example, if you use electric baseboard heaters to heat a house, that
>>> delivers "electric heat" at essentially 100% efficiency. Every kilowatt
>>> hour
>>> of electricity pumped into the baseboards delivers the full 3413 BTUs of
>>> heat.
>>> On the other hand, a natural gas furnace will have a combustion 
>>> efficiency
>>> that diminishes the actual BTUs delivered to heat the home. If you buy 
>>> one
>>> therm and that is combusted at 85% efficiency then you've lost 15% of the
>>> energy right off the bat, and have to figure that in.
>>>       
>> Including the losses at the source then would suggest a rather different
>> comparison between electricity and natural gas as a heating fuel:
>> electricity: 35% (not counting T&D losses) vs. natural gas or propane:
>> 65-85%
>>
>>
>>     
>>> Next, you typically wouldn't run straight electric resistance heat, but
>>> instead would use a heat pump. A good heat pump delivers 8-9 BTUs of heat
>>> for every one watt put in (see the HSPF rating). This effectively 
>>> improves
>>> the comparison in favor of electric heat by a factor of 2+.
>>>
>>>       
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