[Greenbuilding] Chemical Sensitivities
Jason Holstine
jasonh at amicusdb.com
Fri Mar 21 13:55:10 CDT 2008
It's true MSDS sheets are an OSHA and EPA invention, so they'll have a
certain bent on regulatory compliance for worker's exposure to chemicals
that are regulated and the product's hazards (fire, ingestion, explosion,
transport requirements, etc). The sheets aren't geared to the end-user. It's
not just known carcinogens and toxins they have to list, but I'm not sure of
the entire qualification. The MSDSs will include multiple lab methodologies,
including American Conference of Industrial Hygienists (ACIH) and OSHA, and
cover both permissable limits and threshold limits; and sometimes we've seen
European or ASTM voluntarily listed.
Since there is NO EPA regulation on IAQ for VOCs and offgassing, the ozone
regs have been adopted (adapted?), and there's a long list of "exempted
VOCs" and non-VOC offenders. Formaldehyde precursors are a good
example--unlisted chemicals hit the air, react, and form formaldehyde. It
makes for clear mud.
So the MSDS is a good resource but NOT the only source we use. Google a
chemical and you can often find several databases to find info--NIH's NIOSH,
CDC, and others. We'll talk to the product's chemistry/tech dept to get
details. Sometimes they comply sometimes not and we make a judgment call
based on several factors--transparency of info, communication, history,
other products on the market, and our edumacated guts.
The other thing to keep in the back of your mind: a product that's thought
safe and/or non-hazardous now may be found to be otherwise in the future.
What's the next asbestos, urea formaldehdye, etc? Nothing to freak out about
but keep an open mind on the dynamics of our modern planet.
HTH,
Jason
-----Original Message-----
From: greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of David Bergman
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 2:01 PM
To: 'Greenbuilder list'
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Chemical Sensitivities
Also, my understanding of MSDS requirements is that mfr's only have to
disclose ingredients that are on the government's official KNOWN carcinogens
or hazards list. Is that correct?
David
DAVID BERGMAN ARCHITECT / FIRE & WATER LIGHTING + FURNITURE architecture .
interiors . ecodesign . lighting . furniture
bergman at cyberg.com www.cyberg.com
241 Eldridge Street #3R, New York, NY 10002
t 212 475 3106 f 212 677 7291
At 01:49 PM 3/21/2008, Keith Winston wrote:
>Hi Jason,
>
>When you say "clean" MSDS, you mean it seems to indicate a safe product?
>I'm increasingly disappointed in MSDS's as a research strategy on
>products: many spray foam polyurethanes, for example, literally say
>"Part A (proprietary chemicals)" and "Part B (proprietary chemicals)".
>And I've heard Bill Updike talk about how "zero VOC" compounds are
>often "zero VOC" by EPA standards, which were set for smog not indoor
>air quality, and therefor explicitly exclude a long list (something
>like 50) common compounds (like formaldehyde, for example). So one
>can't trust the "no or low VOC" label either, without additional
information...
>
>Any further thoughts to understand what it is we're exactly exposing
>ourselves to?
>
>Keith
>
>
>Jason Holstine wrote:
> > When working with MCS customers (almost like our patients), we make
> > it a rule to tell them that our products have proven to work well
> > with
> MCS people
> > and are popular, but we can never guarantee they won't have a
> > reaction--b/c every person is different. With that guideline in
> > mind, we've found that AFM's caulk is acceptable in performance
> > (doing what caulk is supposed to
> > do) but Titebond's is superior. Stephen will be able to attest to
> > that when his place thaws out--Titebond's Weathermaster caulk will
> > extrude to zero degrees F and serves as a fantastic all-purpose
> > caulk. And in fact Titebond's MSDS sheets are even cleaner. It's all
> > a matter of age of the chemistry.
> >
> > We have tested the OSI lines and have found their MSDS sheets aren't
> > as clean as the Titebond. There are only a couple products the OSI
> > line has that the Titebond doesn't--the big one being the minimum
expanding foam.
> > Compared to other foams it's MSDS is pretty clean, especially for an
> > aerosol, but you'll want to test for acceptance first.
> >
> > Good luck,
> >
> > Jason Holstine
> > Amicus Green Building Center
> > www.amicusgreen.com
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> > [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of
> > Stephen Collette
> > Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 11:22 AM
> > To: Greenbuilder list
> > Subject: [Greenbuilding] Chemical Sensitivities
> >
> >
> > Great point Irina, and unfortunately true. I too have seen people
> > with MCS reacting to "safe products", which is very frustrating for
> > everyone. As I mentioned, echoing Irina, it's client specific.
> >
> > I bought some Titebond green series caulking and drywall glue
> from Jason (on
> > this list) of Amicus. I like the product for durability.
> > (currently buried in snow outside my back door) and I didn't
> really notice a
> > smell. My good friend and carpenter also likes it and the drywall
> glue both.
> > He previously had used their regular wood glue, as it's a good product.
> >
> > I also noticed that OSI now has a "green series spray foam" in a can.
> > I haven't used it or seen it, except online
> > http://www.greenseries.com/product
> > Jason had made comments about the OSI product and I can't remember
> > whether they were testing it or didn't like it. Sorry Jason will
> > have to
> chime in if
> > he gets a chance. And it wasn't about foam, but about caulks he and
> > I were discussing.
> >
> > For Joshua, and others, I typically try to get my hands on a couple
> > of choices, and let the client pick what works best for them.
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> > Stephen Collette BBEC, LEED AP
> > Principal
> > Your Healthy House - Indoor Environmental Testing & Building
> > Consulting www.yourhealthyhouse.ca stephen at yourhealthyhouse.ca
> > 705.652.5159
> >
> >
> >
> > On 20-Mar-08, at 10:57 AM, Irina Golfman Rosenblum wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Stephen,
> >>
> >> I have not had very good results with the AFM caulk and wonder if
> >> you can recommend good caulking products for CMS people both for
> >> indoor and outdoor use. I am also trying to find a good alternative
> >> for phenoseal for sealing the gaps between the wall and baseboard, etc.
> >> Any recommendations will be greatly appreciated.
> >>
> >> Joshua, just an FYI: some chemically sensitive people may react to
> >> products that are supposed to be safe for them. For example, my son
> >> and I are sensitive to some AFM products that are formulated for
> >> people with sensitivities. We do our best to only use safe
> >> products, but we need to be prepared to spend time airing out and
> >> baking out the space, sometimes for weeks.
> >>
> >> Good luck,
> >> Irina
> >> On Mar 19, 2008, at 8:23 PM, Stephen Collette wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Hello Joshua,
> >>>
> >>> I do not, unfortunately recommend the book by CMHC on
> >>> Environmental Hypersensitivity. They took the middle of the road
> >>> approach and caved to manufacturers, and as such, the book is not
> >>> as helpful as it could be. They are working on a revision right
> >>> now (I applied, didn't get it, but had this discussion with
> >>> tremendously talented Virginia Salares, who is running the IAQ
> >>> side there) I believe the revision will be more helpful than the
current one.
> >>>
> >>> It is more important to understand exactly what triggers your
> >>> client has, and then try to remove those materials from the build.
> >>> Difficult at best, complex at worst. There are of course some
> >>> basics, like zero VOC everything, especially caulkings and seals.
> >>> Finishes are becoming easier to source.
> >>>
> >>> Paula Baker-Laporte's Prescription for a Healthy House has just
> >>> come out with a 3rd edition. She is a brilliant architect who is
> >>> also chemically sensitive. It's a great place to start.
> >>>
> >>> If I can be of more help, please email me off list.
> >>>
> >>> Stephen
> >>>
> >>> Stephen Collette BBEC, LEED AP
> >>> Principal
> >>> Your Healthy House - Indoor Environmental Testing & Building
> >>> Consulting www.yourhealthyhouse.ca stephen at yourhealthyhouse.ca
> >>> 705.652.5159
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Greenbuilding email list
> >>> Environmentally-preferable design, construction, building
> >>> elements List info:
> >>> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_listserv.r
> >>> epp .org List email: Greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org Managed by
> >>> BuildingGreen, Inc. http://www.buildinggreen.com
> >>> publisher of Environmental Building News and GreenSpec Hosted
> >>> and archived by REPP / CREST http://www.crest.org To get on the list:
> >>>
> >>> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_listserv.r
> >>> epp .org or mailto:greenbuilding-request at listserv.repp.org?
> >>> subject=unsubscribe
> >>> To get off the list:
> >>>
> >>> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_listserv.r
> >>> epp .org or mailto:greenbuilding-request at listserv.repp.org?
> >>> subject=unsubscribe
> >>>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Greenbuilding email list
> > Environmentally-preferable design, construction, building
> elements List
> > info:
> > http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_listserv.rep
> > p.org List email: Greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org Managed by
> > BuildingGreen, Inc.
> > http://www.buildinggreen.com
> > publisher of Environmental Building News and GreenSpec Hosted
> > and archived by REPP / CREST http://www.crest.org To get on the list:
> >
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_listserv.repp.org
> > or
> > mailto:greenbuilding-request at listserv.repp.org?subject=unsubscribe
> > To get off the list:
> >
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_listserv.repp.org
> > or
> > mailto:greenbuilding-request at listserv.repp.org?subject=unsubscribe
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Greenbuilding email list
> > Environmentally-preferable design, construction, building
> > elements List info:
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_listserv.repp.
> org
> > List email: Greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org Managed by
> > BuildingGreen, Inc. http://www.buildinggreen.com
> > publisher of Environmental Building News and GreenSpec Hosted
> > and archived by REPP / CREST http://www.crest.org To get on the
> > list:
> >
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_listserv.repp.org
> > or
> > mailto:greenbuilding-request at listserv.repp.org?subject=unsubscribe
> > To get off the list:
> >
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_listserv.repp.org
> > or
> > mailto:greenbuilding-request at listserv.repp.org?subject=unsubscribe
> >
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>Greenbuilding email list
> Environmentally-preferable design, construction, building
>elements List info:
>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_listserv.repp.o
>rg List email: Greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org Managed by
>BuildingGreen, Inc. http://www.buildinggreen.com
> publisher of Environmental Building News and GreenSpec Hosted
>and archived by REPP / CREST http://www.crest.org To get on the list:
>
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_listserv.repp.org
> or
>mailto:greenbuilding-request at listserv.repp.org?subject=unsubscribe
>To get off the list:
>
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_listserv.repp.org
> or
>mailto:greenbuilding-request at listserv.repp.org?subject=unsubscribe
_______________________________________________
Greenbuilding email list
Environmentally-preferable design, construction, building elements List
info:
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_listserv.repp.org
List email: Greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org Managed by BuildingGreen, Inc.
http://www.buildinggreen.com
publisher of Environmental Building News and GreenSpec Hosted and
archived by REPP / CREST http://www.crest.org To get on the list:
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_listserv.repp.org
or mailto:greenbuilding-request at listserv.repp.org?subject=unsubscribe
To get off the list:
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_listserv.repp.org
or mailto:greenbuilding-request at listserv.repp.org?subject=unsubscribe
More information about the Greenbuilding
mailing list