[Greenbuilding] Healthy Email Group WAS Re: Soy Insulation
Bob Korves
bkorves at winfirst.com
Sun Feb 1 15:45:48 CST 2009
Nick,
I think I follow your calculations for the FESH. A part of the the equation
I do not understand is the Tmax of the storage of 140F. In most all of your
designs I have followed, from the solar closet to this one, it is usually
assumed that the storage reaches 140F. Given your simple and inexpensive
collectors, I am having trouble seeing the storage actually reach that
temperature. Can you show me how it gets there?
Also, your "Total house conductance (Btu/h-F): 180" is a remarkably low
heat loss. Do I assume a tiny house and/or massive insulation?
I'm not nit picking -- I want to understand your thinking...
-Bob Korves
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Pine" <nick at early.com>
To: <greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 1:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Healthy Email Group WAS Re: Soy Insulation
> Don Eyermann writes:
>
>> PP and PEX tubing range from $.35 to $.50 per foot here, so even if there
>> were eight thousand feet of tubing in a house system..that would be about
>> $4,000.00 plus the simple, cheap labor to install it.
>
> Another straw man. And where are the miles and miles of stainless steel?
> And the enormous excavations, and the mold and mice in the stainless steel
> pipes...
>
>> The PLAN is to first get our No.1 "Technology Demonstrator" display home
>> built in Arizona in time for the USGBC Green Build 09 (November) and have
>> it fully documented on our all English website.
>
> Gut. Ich spreche nur ein Bisschen Deutsch. Y-a-t'il une version francaise?
>
>> Everything will be transparent and the costs will be shown on the site.
>
> I predict it will be hideously expensive, compared to other zero-energy
> houses.
>
>> We are seekers of simple, viable alternatives...
>
> You might well seek further.
>
>>The labor and materials of super-insulation, multi-pane argon windows
>>(instead of "simpler" double pane low-e windows) and concern for house
>>orientation, Trombe walls, cooling towers...etc. to achieve a true Passiv
>>Haus seems more involved and more costly to me.
>
> More straw men.
>
>> the house works using the free near surface geothermal temperature of the
>> earth (cooling) and the free solar radiant energy of the SUN
>
> Your big sun or our little sun? :-)
>
>>Alas I must enroll scoffing/unconvinced investors that Zero Energy Homes
>>are economically and financially viable for them as an investment
>>vehicle....
>
> Unfortunately for you, many of them understand high-school physics and
> economics :-)
>
>>We have to show that the stuff is important...(being done by people like
>>Al Gore)...
>
> And the Pope.
>
>>>Performance calculations are already on-line at www.isomax-terrasol.eu
>>>for those who are open minded/sincere seekers enough to look.
>>
>> Here?
>>
>> http://www.isomax-terrasol.eu/en/technologie/technical-data.html
>>
>> There are many ways to build zero-energy houses. Yours seem hideously
>> expensive.
>
> So, we have heard of the Canadian Low-Energy Solar House (LESH) and the
> Zero-Energy Solar House (ZESH.) Here's a calc for a Frugal-Energy Solar
> House (FESH) in Omaha:
>
> 10 PI=4*ATN(1)
> 20 'WS=4:LS=12:HS=3'cloudy-day store dimensions (ft)
> 30 'PRINT"1000'Cloudy store dimensions (ft):"WS;"x";LS;"x";hS
> 40 'AS=2*(WS+LS)*hS+2*WS*LS'cloudy store surface (ft^2)
> 50 'CS=WS*LS*DS*62.33'cloudy store capacitance (Btu/F)
> 60 DS=7:HS=4'cloudy-day store dimensions (ft)
> 70 PRINT"1000'Cloudy store dimensions (ft):";DS;"diam x";HS;"high"
> 80 AS=2*PI*(DS/2)^2+PI*HS*DS'cloudy store surface (ft^2)
> 90 RS=36'cloudy store R-value (ft^2-F-h/Btu)
> 100 GS=AS/RS'cloudy store thermal conductance (Btu/h-F)
> 110 CS=PI*(DS/2)^2*HS*62.33'cloudy store capacitance (Btu/F)
> 120 TS=140'average-day store temp (F)
> 130 GH=180'total house conductance (Btu/h-F)
> 140 PRINT"1010'Total house conductance (Btu/h-F):";GH
> 150 TA=24.4'average outdoor temp (F)
> 160 TH=32.9'average daily high (F)
> 170 TD=TA-(TH-TA)'dawn temp (F)
> 180 HD=(70-TD)*GH'dawn heat required at 70 F (Btu/h)
> 190 GRAD=1000'radiator conductance (Btu/h-F)
> 200 TM=70+HD/GRAD'min usable store temp (F)
> 210 PRINT"1020'Min/max cloudy store temp (F):";TM;TS
> 220 HS=(TS-TM)*CS'stored cloudy-day heat (Btu)
> 230 HC=24*(65-TA)*GH'heat required for 1 cloudy day (Btu/day)
> 240 EUSE=600'indoor electrical use (kWh/mo)
> 250 HE=3412*EUSE/30'electric heat (Btu/day)
> 260 ND=HS/(HC-HE)'number of cloudy days stored
> 270 PRINT"1030'Number of cloudy days stored:";ND
> 280 PRINT"1040'Approximate solar fraction:";1-2^(-ND)
> 290 ES=24*(TS-65)*GS'average day store loss (Btu/day)
> 300 DUSE=50'DHW use (gal/day)
> 310 ED=8.33*DUSE*(110-50)'DHW energy (Btu/day)
> 320 ESTORE=ES+ED'average store collection (Btu/day)
> 330 SSUN=990'sun on south wall (Btu/ft^2-day)
> 340 SWA=96'south window area (ft^2)
> 350 SWG=.5*SWA*SSUN'average south window gain (Btu/day)
> 360 EDAY=HC-SWG-HE-ES'average sunspace air heating (Btu/day)
> 370 PRINT"1050'Estore, Eday (Btu/day):";ESTORE;EDAY
> 380 NHEAT=(24-DAYL)*EDAY/24'overnight heat (Btu/day)
> 390 NDIFF=10'day-night temp diff (F)
> 400 CHOUSE=NHEAT/NDIFF'overnight house capacitance (Btu/F)
> 410 PRINT"1055'Overnight house capacitance (Btu/F):";CHOUSE
> 420 DAYL=6'solar collection day length (hours)
> 430 TDAY=(TA+TH)/2'approximate daytime temp (F)
> 440 TSS=TDAY+2*.8*SSUN/DAYL'Thevenin sunspace temp (F)
> 450 RSS=DAYL/(EDAY/(TSS-65)+ESTORE/(TSS-TS))'Thev SS resistance (F-h/Btu)
> 460 TSC=RSS*ESTORE/(TSS-TS)'store collection time (hours)
> 470 TDC=DAYL-TSC'sunspace air heating time (hours)
> 480 PRINT"1060'Tstore, Tday (hours):";TSC;TDC
> 490 AG=2/(RSS-1/GRAD)'min sunspace glazing area (ft^2)
> 500 HG=8'sunspace glazing height (ft)
> 510 LG=AG/HG'sunspace glazing length (ft)
> 520 LGR=4*INT(LG/4+1)'round up length to 4'
> 530 PRINT"1070'SS glazing dimensions (ft):";HG;"high x";LGR;"long"
>
> Cloudy store dimensions (ft): 7 diam x 4 high
> Total house conductance (Btu/h-F): 180
> Min/max cloudy store temp (F): 79.738 140
> Number of cloudy days stored: 5.39618
> Approximate solar fraction: . 9762541
>
> Estore, Eday (Btu/day): 33236.68 51385.32
> Overnight house capacitance (Btu/F) 5138.532
> Tstore, Tday (hours): 2.945951 3.05405
> SS glazing dimensions (ft): 8 high x 20 long
>
> Nick
>
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