[Greenbuilding] Hot water return

Jason Holstine jason at amicusgreen.com
Wed Feb 4 10:50:07 CST 2009 

Useful info/observation, thx Ron.

The primary reason for the motion sensor: never underestimate the ability of
the lesser green population to find lazy excuses to mentally exhaust
themselves and excuse themselves of otherwise good ideas. Plus, the wiz-bang
of the technology gives it a little sexy appeal. It's why motion detectors
for light switches are taking off. (Seriously, it's really that had to flip
that switch 4 inches from your waist when you walk out the door? OK, fine,
we'll have technology take care of it for you.)


-----Original Message-----
From: RONALD CASCIO [mailto:roncascio at verizon.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 11:05 AM
To: Jason Holstine; Greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Hot water return


>From my experience...

When he pump is engaged (and the loop is cold) it will demand hot water from
the water heater, and the heater and pump will run until the sensor is
satisfied by the hot water loop at the set temperature. This might take a
minute or so, depending on the loop size. If someone just walks into the
bathroom for something and doesn't need hot water (which at least in our
house is more often than not) and trips the motion detector switch then
water heater and pump will come on for no reason.

I see no problems/downsides whatsoever with a simple manual button
activator, but plenty with the motion detector activation.


Ron


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jason Holstine" <jason at amicusgreen.com>
To: <Greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Hot water return


> The pump has a temperature gauge so it won't activate if it doesn't need 
> to.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RONALD CASCIO [mailto:roncascio at verizon.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 4:47 AM
> To: Jason Holstine; 'Mark Piepkorn'; Greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Hot water return
>
>
> I'd think second about the motion detector, could send needless msgs and
> waste quite allot of water and energy.
>
> We've been living with a Metlund button version for over two years now and
> it's a snap, even the 6 year old has it wired... pushing the button is 
> just
> second nature before needing hot water. This hot water system is one of 
> the
> best/greenest features in our house IMHO.
>
> And I'll second Jason's remark to Mark about keeping the info coming. Most
> of the common (and not so common) issues that arise here have a history of
> attention at EBN, and if Mark is willing to take the time to share with
> those who have yet to recognize the wealth of information there and to 
> sign
> up for the service... then let it rip. Eventually they'll see the light 
> and
> subscribe.
>
> Ron
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jason Holstine" <jason at amicusgreen.com>
> To: "'Mark Piepkorn'" <mark at buildinggreen.com>;
> <Greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 10:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Hot water return
>
>
>> Indeed, the Metlund D'Mands are quite effective, esp given their
>> simplicity.
>> You can get a motion detector to turn it on when you walk in the room
>> if you care to automate it a little.
>>
>> Mark - don't even think of ducking back to lurk mode. I've often
>> wanted to post bg stories but haven't in respect to the subscription
>> service and copyrights. It's beyond valuable information.
>>
>> Jason Holstine
>> Amicus Green Building Center
>> www.amicusgreen.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org
>> [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of Mark
>> Piepkorn
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 10:02 PM
>> To: Greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org
>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Hot water return
>>
>>
>>         Demand-Controlled Hot Water Circulators:
>> http://www.buildinggreen.com/auth/article.cfm/2008/2/3/Water-Doing-Mor
>> e-With -Less/#Demand-ControlledHotWaterCirculators
>>
>> At 08:49 PM 2/3/2009, Gennaro Brooks-Church wrote:
>>>I found this very good article on return lines and circulators.
>>>http://www.waterrating.gov.au/publications/pubs/hot-water-circulators.
>>>p
>>>df
>>>
>>>Although it does say that on demand re circulators are good, they only
>>>work really well when they are manual. Meaning they need to be
>>>activated by a switch (in the bathroom for example). Sounds way too
>>>complicated.
>>
>>         That's the reason I can't stay up after it gets dark - them
>> light-switcher-onners are just too much for me to figure
>> out.   :)   Seriously, pushing a button to activate a
>> temperature-sensing recirculator is less complicated than sticking
>> your finger in the stream every few seconds to see if the water's hot 
>> yet.
>>
>>>I've basically concluded that in terms of energy conservation it isn't
>>>worth having a hot water return. The water saved does not warrant the
>>>energy wasted (in hot water, up front costs and electricity). For
>>>comfort of course it is good but not for energy savings.
>>
>>         We all rest our pointy heads on solipsistic pillows of our own
>> experience. I grew up in Minnesota and live in Vermont, so I always
>> default to thinking about nice juicy heating climates full of lakes
>> and streams and with frequent rain and snow (despite a couple odd
>> years in New Mexico).
>> From
>> a 1995 - yes, FOURTEEN YEARS ago - review in EBN of Metlund's
>> on-demand recirc system: "The potential water savings from
>> recirculating systems is so dramatic that many municipalities,
>> particularly in drought-stricken California, now require such systems
>> in new homes. Depending on the assumptions chosen, a full-time
>> recirculating system can use about 900 kWh (more than a full-size
>> refrigerator) and waste 9 million Btu (9,500
>> megajoules) annually in heat loss from pipes."
>> http://www.buildinggreen.com/auth/article.cfm/1995/3/1/Hot-Water-on-De
>> mand-A
>> nd-No-Energy-Penalty/
>>
>>         For more on the state of water and our relationships with it,
>> see these three recent EBN features:
>>
>> Water: Doing More With Less (February 1, 2008)
>> http://www.buildinggreen.com/auth/article.cfm/2008/2/3/Water-Doing-Mor
>> e-With
>> -Less/
>>
>> Alternative Water Sources: Supply-Side Solutions for Green Buildings
>> (May 1,
>> 2008)
>> http://www.buildinggreen.com/auth/article.cfm/2008/4/29/Alternative-Wa
>> ter-So urces-Supply-Side-Solutions-for-Green-Buildings/
>>
>> Water Policies: Encouraging Conservation (September 1, 2008)
>> http://www.buildinggreen.com/auth/article.cfm/2008/8/28/Water-Policies
>> -Encou
>> raging-Conservation/
>>
>>
>>         Am I aggravating people by posting all this BuildingGreen
>> stuff lately, or is it helpful? I do work there, after all, and there
>> are people on this list wise enough to keep abreast of the information
>> available there on their own. On the other hand, BuildingGreen does
>> the day-to-day maintenance of this list as a public service (REPP.org
>> is the actual listowner), so some license might have been earned.
>> Whatever. I'll probably duck back into lurk mode anyway - as enjoyable
>> as it can sometimes be, active forum participation takes more time
>> than I usually have.
>>
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
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