[Greenbuilding] Desert water

Fri Mar 27 17:45:51 CDT 2009

YES! The ever ongoing talk of more Nuclear power plants, which if you
remember was one of John McCain's campaign points....more generating plants
was his solution...as opposed to more efficient housing. Nuclear plants use
a horrific amount of fresh water. Here's the story on Palo Verde:

Due to its location in the Arizona desert, Palo Verde is the only nuclear
generating facility in the world that is not located adjacent to a large
body of water. Instead, it uses treated sewage from several nearby
municipalities to meet its cooling water needs, recycling 20 billion US
gallons (76,000,000 m³) of wastewater each year. At the nuclear plant site,
the wastewater is further treated and stored in an 80 acre (324,000 m²)
reservoir for use in the plant's cooling towers.

The nuclear steam supply for each unit was designed and supplied by
Combustion Engineering, designated the System 80 standard design — a
predecessor of the newer standard System 80+ design. Each primary system
originally supplied 3.817 GW of thermal power to the secondary (steam) side
of each plant. The design is a so-called 2 × 4, with each of four main
reactor coolant pumps circulating more than 111,000 gallons per minute of
primary-side water through 2 large steam generators.

The main turbine generators were supplied by General Electric and when
installed were the largest in the world, capable of generating 1.447 GW of
electricity each. They remain the largest out of 60 Hz turbine generators.

It supplies electricity at a production cost (including fuel, maintenance
and operation) of 1.33 U.S. cents per kilowatt-hour.[7] This is cheaper than
coal (2.26 cents/kWh) or natural gas (4.54 cents/kWh) in the region at the
same time (2002), but more expensive than hydro (0.63 cents/kWh). Assuming a
60-year plant life and 5% long-term cost of capital, the depreciation and
capital costs not included in the previous marginal cost for Palo Verde are
approximately another 1.4 cents per kilowatt-hour. 1.33+1.4= 2.73/kWh total.
In 2002, the wholesale value of the electricity produced was 2.5 cents/kWh.
By 2007, the wholesale value of electricity at the Palo Verde hub was 6.33
cents/kWh.[8] Nuclear power generators are very profitable when fossil fuel
prices are high. ref:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palo_Verde_Nuclear_Generating_Station

My Comment: But they didn't compare it to the cost per KW of solar plants. 

NREL, working through SunLab, supports the U.S. Department of Energy's goal
to install 1,000 megawatts (MW) of new concentrating solar power systems in
the southwestern United States by 2010. This level of deployment, combined
with research and development to reduce technology component costs, could
help reduce concentrating solar power 
electricity costs to $0.07/kilowatt-hour. At this cost, concentrating solar
power can compete effectively in the Southwest's energy markets. 
ref: http://www.nrel.gov/csp/1000mw_initiative.html

My Comment: The 7.0 cents/kWh seems high to me being as it doesn't need
refueling nor burn any fuel.??

Don

-----Original Message-----
From: greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of Racheli Gai
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 7:36 AM
To: 'GB REPP'
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Desert water

Hi Bob,
It's not illegal to harvest rainwater in Arizona.
I want to mention that an obvious way to save water would be to  
disallow various current uses:
Private swimming pools come to mind as a prime example...
Growing high water use crops is another.
If water wasn't so heavily subsidized, with the money going instead to  
helping people build cisterns
and creating the kind of earthworks necessary to keep water in place,  
we could make a difference.

BTW - I went to a panel discussion about the folly of nuclear energy,  
and an interesting bit
mentioned by one of the speakers was that Palo Verde nuclear reactor's  
use of water equals
something like 40% of Tucson's water use.  One more reason to close  
this damn place!

Racheli.

On Mar 27, 2009, at 7:20 AM, Bob Korves wrote:

> In Colorado (one example) it is illegal to harvest the rainwater that  
> falls on your property, including your roof, because that water  
> already belongs to someone downstream.  Water rights are similar in  
> other Southwest US states. We were looking for property in the  
> Southwest, but walked away mainly because of water (and water rights)  
> issues.  In the Southwest, if you want to understand water, follow the  
> money.  If you want to understand money, follow the water...
>
> Climate change and an increasing population only exacerbates water  
> problems. It will get worse.
>
> We have a slightly different water problem here in Sacramento,  
> California where we live, in addition to increasing demand and  
> decreasing supply.  We essentially live in a desert, and it typically  
> doesn't rain at all from April through October.  Water is harvested  
> from melting snow in the Sierra Nevada mountains to supply cities and  
> agriculture in Northern California. We get our rain and snow in a few  
> large scale events, mostly in December-February.  Then the issue is  
> flooding.  Our house is in a flood plain, and the rivers are  
> constrained less and less by spreading out on the flood plains, and  
> more and more by being constrained by higher and higher levees.  What  
> used to be flood plain is now covered with buildings.
>
> The annual floods of older times were tempered by the flood plains and  
> also annually deposited new nutrients that built the soil.  Now we  
> only deplete that soil, adding mega amounts of fertilizers and other  
> chemicals to support unsustainable agricultural practices.  And now,  
> if one of our levees breaks or overflows during a high water event,  
> our house (and many thousands more) will be looking at an immediate  
> 15+ feet of water.
>
> When the Sacramento valley finally has a catastrophic flood -- and it  
> will -- Katrina will thereafter be looked at as a relatively minor  
> event. Can you see why we are looking to move, despite very good jobs  
> and a wonderful climate?
> -Bob Korves
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "noci" <nochi at gmx.net>
> To: <greenbuilding at listserv.repp.org>
> Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 2:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] McMansion WAS waste materials and grey  
> water
>
>
>> about the issue of collecting rain water - I was under the impression  
>> (gleaned from a Landscape Architecture discussion list these past few  
>> weeks) that in certain southern US states it is considered a public  
>> resource and mustn't be wholly retained on site- why? perhaps if  
>> everyone did that, the aquifers wouldn't properly recharge (?)
>>
>> Max
>
>
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