[Stoves] Pedal powered fan

Tue Dec 19 11:46:08 CST 2006

Dear Jonathan

It is important to know where the data is from.

Here is Canada, I would guess that greater than 99% of people using Biomass 
are connected to the grid. I would also guess that  many small Third World 
communities have 0% connectivity to the grid.

Would your Consultant Friend have a breakdown by locality or region or 
Country?

The geography associated with these figures is very important. In Canada, a 
$1500 stove might be acceptable; in Bolivia, a $32 is acceptable to some 
people, while to others in Bolivia, they require a $5 stove. In some African 
Countries, where the people have the skills and the clay, they wouldn't buy 
a $1 stove because they can make a better stove for less cost themselves.

Best wishes,

Kevin

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jonathan Lewis" <jlewis at catf.us>
To: <stoves at listserv.repp.org>; "'Dean Still'" <dstill at epud.net>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Pedal powered fan

> Dean wrote:
>>Can anyone estimate the percentage of folks who cook with biomass who are
> connected to the grid?
>
> Dean--
> A consultant we're working with on the GISS project happened to raise this
> issue the other day; he estimates that just under 40% of biomass stove 
> users
> are connected to the grid.  I think that's in line with some of the other
> responses you've received.
>
> Thanks,
> Jonathan Lewis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> [mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of
> stoves-request at listserv.repp.org
> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 4:28 AM
> To: stoves at listserv.repp.org
> Subject: Stoves Digest, Vol 6, Issue 26
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Pedal powered fan (Peter Singfield)
>   2. Re: Pedal powered fan (Robert Taylor)
>   3. Re: Pedal powered fan (Dean Still)
>   4. Re: Pedal powered fan (Peter Singfield)
>   5. Foot powered Bellows (Peter Singfield)
>   6. Re: Pedal powered fan (Tom Miles)
>   7. Re: Foot powered Bellows (Tom Miles)
>   8. Re: Foot powered Bellows (Ken Basterfield)
>   9. Re: Pedal powered fan (steve)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 17:15:21 -0600 (CST)
> From: Peter Singfield <snkm at btl.net>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Pedal powered fan
> To: stoves at listserv.repp.org
> Message-ID: <3.0.32.20061217171342.00b24960 at pop.btl.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> Dear Martin and list;
>
> Consider a simple and so extremely economic "Bellows" -- that can be used
> for the starting up of a fire -- till the chimany draft is functioning 
> well
> -- and it takes over and does the rest.
>
> I have seen a simple bellows used for this purpose.
>
> The woman pulls on a string which lifts a stone (About 5 lbs) -- and opens
> the bellows -- then she releases the tension -- the weight of the stone
> gives an even blasting of air -- then she pulls on the string again.
>
> Probably to simple -- to functional -- right??
>
> Peter/Belize
>
> At 11:39 AM 12/17/2006 -0400, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
>>Dear Martin
>>
>>I think your "direct mechanical drive system" will also work.... many
>>millions or treadle operated Singer sewing machines around the world prove
>>that it is practical to generate small quantities of power from human
>>effort.
>>
>>A different kind of fan system will be required... It will require
> different
>>bearings of a nature that it endure the "side loading" caused by the belt.
>>Additionally, if the stove system is relatively small, and if the fan is
>>mounted on the stove, there will need to be a structure of some sort to
>>ensure that belt tension does not more the stove toward the "power
> machine",
>>or there must be two separate systems, with a flexible hose delivering the
>>air to the stove.
>>
>>Concerning the $5 number... I presume this is the equivalent to total
>>expenditures equal to $5 of cost if the stove system was made in the USA. 
>>I
>
>>do not know what costs are really permissible when coming up with a total
>>cost. A factory made product has the following costs:
>>*Materials
>>*Labor
>>*Factory overhead, expense,  and profit
>>*Packaging
>>*Instructions
>>*Shipping
>>*Training and support.
>>
>>If the stove is made locally near the point of use, for sale directly to
> the
>>End User, the following costs are appropriate:
>>*Materials
>>*Labor
>>*Factory overhead, expense, and profit.
>>*Customer Support
>>
>>If the stove can be made locally by the End User, then the cost could be 
>>as
>
>>low as:
>>*Somebody else providing plans, sketches, or instructions on how to build
>>the stove.
>>*Cost of materials that must be purchased.
>>
>>It would be very helpful if someone could elaborate on what costs must be
>>included in the "$5 stove." It is indeed a challenge to make a stove at a
>>foreign factory and get it to the End User for $5 or less.
>>
>>Best wishes,
>>
>>Kevin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "Boll, Martin Dr." <boll.bn at t-online.de>
>>To: <stoves at listserv.repp.org>
>>Cc: "'Frans Peeters'" <peetersfrans at pandora.be>
>>Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 9:59 AM
>>Subject: Re: [Stoves] Pedal powered fan
>>
>>
>>> Dear Kevin,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> First of all I think it is possible. But to make a 5$ fan plus
>>> energy-generator plus stove, we must de-lard as well the
>>> bicycle-pedal-system as well as the fan and the stove too. The fan must
> be
>>> locally made and low-tech; mechanically driven by a belt/string.
>>> -Transmission by a big and a small circle-disk with V- or U-profile on
> the
>>> periphery, to guide and hold the transmission-cord on both the disks.-
>>>
>>> The big disk can be made of wood, metal, armoured brick or concrete (
>>> Think
>>> of making the profile notch smooth, for not wearing out the belt before
>>> time), with quadratic axle-profile, where you easily can fix a lever and
>>> pedal on each side.
>>>
>>> -The big disk/wheel could be made as well as an old-fashioned 
>>> water-wheel
>
>>> by
>>> a pair of crossing wood-bars round the quadratic axle; my original
> thought
>>> for a solution.
>>>
>>> I think it is possible to do that -if no other possibility- with wood
> too.
>>> Naturally the dimensions must be wood-adequate, and not as the metal
>>> original.
>>>
>>> -The idea for a brick-wheel came when I saw your 5$ price to manage 
>>> with.
>>> That would be another task for Crispins Brick-maker.
>>>
>>> When a transmission from pedal-disk 1 revolution to 10 revolutions of 
>>> the
>>> fan will be sufficient, I think it is possible.
>>>
>>> For an according radial-fan I have a simple construction solution in 
>>> mind
>>> and I shall try to give a sketch later on.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Martin
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Martin
>>>
>>>
>>> Bicycle generated power is certainly practical, and it will work.
>>> Additionally, it is probably the most available, understandable, and
>>> maintainable way to generate adequate quantities of power to run a 
>>> stove.
>>>
>>> We hear frequent reference to "The $5 Stove." Do you think it would be
>>> possible to build a stove with a fan, and to provide a bicycle type
>>> generator system for operating the fan, for $5 or less?
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Kevin
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Boll, Martin Dr." <
>>> <http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_listserv.repp.org>
>>> boll.bn
>>> at t-online.de>
>>> To: <
> <http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_listserv.repp.org>
>>> stoves at listserv.repp.org>
>>> Cc: "'Frans Peeters'" <
>>> <http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_listserv.repp.org>
>>> peetersfrans at pandora.be>
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 4:30 PM
>>> Subject: [Stoves] Pedal powered fan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Stoves mailing list
>>> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>>> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_listserv.repp.org
>>> http://www.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Stoves mailing list
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>>http://www.bioenergylists.org
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 10:49:57 +0800
> From: "Robert Taylor" <rt at ms1.hinet.net>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Pedal powered fan
> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at listserv.repp.org>
> Message-ID: <00cb01c7224f$5662ba20$5e22fea9 at your3qpvdl2ezg>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> Will anyone want to use a stove with a fan that needs to be powered by
> continuous human effort, whether by pedal, treadle or handcrank? If the
> person providing the power is also the person doing the cooking, what
> happens when she stops pedaling to attend to the pot on the stove? If the
> stove needs a powered air supply to burn cleanly, won't she then be 
> exposed
> to the very combustion products that the improved stove was supposed to be
> saving her from? And whether the person doing the pedaling is the cook or
> someone else, what happens to the other tasks that they would no doubt 
> have
> otherwise been attending to while the pot is coming to the boil, or
> simmering? I imagine that the inclination to let the stove burn without 
> the
> fan running would be strong.
>
> In other words, I think that if a fan is needed and an electricity supply
> and periodic replacement of the fan when it fails are not considered
> feasible, then the alternative source of power needs to be one that is
> stored, or is continuously generated by other means than direct human
> effort.
>
> Apart from Peter Singer's bellows idea, is clockwork a technology that
> effectively still exists in the relevant countries? And would it deliver
> enough power with reasonable intervals between winding? I can't see it 
> being
>
> cheaper than electrical parts, though.
>
> Robert Taylor
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 19:14:59 -0800
> From: "Dean Still" <dstill at epud.net>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Pedal powered fan
> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> <stoves at listserv.repp.org>
> Message-ID: <20061218031503.26073D at telchar.epud.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Dear All,
>
> I think, unfortunately, that the only real-life viable solution is to plug
> the fan stove into the wall. But that could provide some proportion of 
> wood
> users with really clean biomass energy. Can anyone estimate the percentage
> of folks who cook with biomass who are connected to the grid?
>
> Best,
>
> Dean
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> [mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of Robert Taylor
> Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 6:50 PM
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Pedal powered fan
>
> Will anyone want to use a stove with a fan that needs to be powered by
> continuous human effort, whether by pedal, treadle or handcrank? If the
> person providing the power is also the person doing the cooking, what
> happens when she stops pedaling to attend to the pot on the stove? If the
> stove needs a powered air supply to burn cleanly, won't she then be 
> exposed
> to the very combustion products that the improved stove was supposed to be
> saving her from? And whether the person doing the pedaling is the cook or
> someone else, what happens to the other tasks that they would no doubt 
> have
> otherwise been attending to while the pot is coming to the boil, or
> simmering? I imagine that the inclination to let the stove burn without 
> the
> fan running would be strong.
>
> In other words, I think that if a fan is needed and an electricity supply
> and periodic replacement of the fan when it fails are not considered
> feasible, then the alternative source of power needs to be one that is
> stored, or is continuously generated by other means than direct human
> effort.
>
> Apart from Peter Singer's bellows idea, is clockwork a technology that
> effectively still exists in the relevant countries? And would it deliver
> enough power with reasonable intervals between winding? I can't see it 
> being
>
> cheaper than electrical parts, though.
>
> Robert Taylor
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_listserv.repp.org
> http://www.bioenergylists.org
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 22:47:50 -0600 (CST)
> From: Peter Singfield <snkm at btl.net>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Pedal powered fan
> To: stoves at listserv.repp.org
> Message-ID: <3.0.32.20061217224942.00b25470 at pop.btl.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> At 10:49 AM 12/18/2006 +0800, you wrote:
> And whether the person doing the pedaling is the cook or
>>someone else, what happens to the other tasks that they would no doubt 
>>have
>
>>otherwise been attending to while the pot is coming to the boil, or
>>simmering? I imagine that the inclination to let the stove burn without 
>>the
>
>>fan running would be strong.
>>
>
> The string fits through a hole in a "stick" reaching across the ceiling in
> the appropriate position.
>
> The woman only needs one hand to operate the bellows -- and can move in a 
> 3
> or four foot circle while doing so.
>
> When she lets go the string (with a knob on the end) hangs in easy reach.
>
> Well -- they have been doing it that way for hundreds of years.
>
> As have blacksmiths!!
>
> I know -- to simple -- to well proven effective -- not for the grains on
> this list at all -- right??
>
> I remember seeing some amazing small furnaces for smelting/smelting silver
> -- gold -- with bellow systems -- using charcoal.
>
> When I was young in the Eastern Townships of Quebec Canada our old
> blacksmith in Waterloo town was very modernized -- he had the most amazing
> hand crank blower -- rather than the traditional large bellows.
>
> If you went there to get some forging done -- you were expected to crank
> the hand blower -- with him signaling -- faster -- slower -- etc.
>
> I also remember folks starting up those old fashioned room heaters that
> burned coal -- using hand bellows.
>
> Little bit of paper -- some birch bark -- some dry wood -- then the 
> coal --
> and about 30 seconds to one minute of bellows -- there -- toasty -- real
> toasty.
>
> Course -- people tend to try and re-invent wheel over and over.
>
> Anyway -- you can't even buy a small bellows any more -- but once -- they
> were sold in every store.
>
> Wonder if China or India still makes them??
>
> Hey -- maybe millions of people in Asia still use such??
>
> AD Karve??
>
> The coal stoves had a special hole with a sliding round plate -- you shove
> that to the side -- stuck in the nozzle of the bellows -- and pumped air 
> to
> start hot fire -- then withdrew -- plate slide over hole -- mission
> accomplished. 30 seconds -- maybe one minute??
>
> I know -- to hard -- we must stay allergic to "muscle" power -- right??
>
> You have much to learn about 3rd world life styles folks!!
>
> Starting with people here not being allergic to muscle power!!
>
> Anyway -- forget bellows for making a fire -- it has been done -- was
> proven very succesful -- until electric fans were invented -- so now --
> let's not even consider bellows anymore -- even for stoves in places with
> no electricity!!
>
> You folks are really on some kind of trip -- eh??
>
> OK -- Googled "Bellows Stoves" and all kinds of interesting urls popped 
> up.
>
> Ebay has all kinds for sale:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Beautiful-LARGE-Fireplace-BELLOWS-Christmas-DICKENS_W0QQ
> itemZ320060820785QQihZ011QQcategoryZ20564QQcmdZViewItem
>
> Really "fancy" -- $20.00
>
> http://search.stores.ebay.com/Hearth-Stove_bellows_W0QQftsZ2QQsaselZ12064939
> 5QQsatitleZbellowsQQsofpZ0
>
> Large selection -- but antiques -- $40 to $60 -- but -- great for studying
> designs - -eh??
>
> Found this Url:
>
> Wings  THE HOME-MADE STOVE ARCHIVES
>
> http://wings.interfree.it/html/main.html
>
> A number of stove designs be there --
>
> http://wings.interfree.it/html/fallingw.html
>
> Cute tin can stove --
>
> Then on to heavy hitters in regards to Bellows:
>
> ] Boiling Point 50 - Promoting improved household stoves in ChinaFile
> Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
> Figure 1 Improved stoves for biomass ? chimney built into wall (photo: 
> Kirk
> Smith) ... Figure 2 Unvented stove with bellows. (photo: Kirk Smith) ...
>
> www.itdg.org/docs/energy/docs50/bp50-china.pdf -
>
> well -- hey -- lookee at that -- eh??
>
>
> Peter / Belize
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 23:08:23 -0600 (CST)
> From: Peter Singfield <snkm at btl.net>
> Subject: [Stoves] Foot powered Bellows
> To: STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
> Message-ID: <3.0.32.20061217231018.00b28100 at pop.btl.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> OK -- how about a foot powered Bellows??
>
> Both hands then free to cook and things --
>
> Bellows 3 Litre Foot Pump
>
> http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Browse/catalogId/10001/identifier/8162317.htm
>
> Exact Url:
>
> http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/3406199/Trail/C%24cip%3D422
> 22.Sports%2Band%2Bleisure%3EC%24cip%3D42223.Camping%2Band%2Bcaravaning.htm
>
> Peter / Belize
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 22:04:33 -0800
> From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Pedal powered fan
> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> <stoves at listserv.repp.org>
> Message-ID: <20061218060409.C03742955F at smtpauth.easystreet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> Dean Still: Can anyone estimate the percentage of folks who cook with
> biomass who are connected to the grid?
>
> Great question. Does Practical Action have information like that?
>
> Tom Miles
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 22:04:33 -0800
> From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Foot powered Bellows
> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> <stoves at listserv.repp.org>
> Message-ID: <20061218060410.1E5FA29562 at smtpauth.easystreet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> A foot powered bellows that could be used to assist a natural draft stove
> for starting or boiling might be quite useful. But a TEG driven fan might 
> be
> cheaper.
>
> Tom
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> [mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of Peter Singfield
> Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 9:08 PM
> To: STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
> Subject: [Stoves] Foot powered Bellows
>
>
> OK -- how about a foot powered Bellows??
>
> Both hands then free to cook and things --
>
> Bellows 3 Litre Foot Pump
>
> http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Browse/catalogId/10001/identifier/8162317.htm
>
> Exact Url:
>
> http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/3406199/Trail/C%24cip%3D422
> 22.Sports%2Band%2Bleisure%3EC%24cip%3D42223.Camping%2Band%2Bcaravaning.htm
>
> Peter / Belize
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_listserv.repp.org
> http://www.bioenergylists.org
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 08:17:05 -0000
> From: "Ken Basterfield" <ken at basterfield.com>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Foot powered Bellows
> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> <stoves at listserv.repp.org>
> Message-ID: <000f01c7227c$eb9973e0$0a07a8c0 at ThinkPadT30>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250"
>
> Dear Peter,
> I think you under-estimate the female capacity to do three things at once.
> Mount the bellows on a skateboard. She can scoot from one job to the next
> with one foot, pumping meanwhile with the other foot, while her hands are
> busy with the primary task. This will release her husband for more 
> cerebral
> work.
> Ken
>
>
>
> I've stopped 1,027 spam and fraud messages. You can too!
> Free trial of spam and fraud protection at
> http://www.cloudmark.com/sig/?rc=f4n4hl
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> [mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of Peter Singfield
> Sent: 18 December 2006 05:08
> To: STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
> Subject: [Stoves] Foot powered Bellows
>
>
>
> OK -- how about a foot powered Bellows??
>
> Both hands then free to cook and things --
>
> Bellows 3 Litre Foot Pump
>
> http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Browse/catalogId/10001/identifier/8162317.htm
>
> Exact Url:
>
> http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/3406199/Trail/C%24cip%3D422
> 22.Sports%2Band%2Bleisure%3EC%24cip%3D42223.Camping%2Band%2Bcaravaning.htm
>
> Peter / Belize
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_listserv.repp.org
> http://www.bioenergylists.org
>
> ______________________________________________
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 09:28:05 GMT
> From: "steve" <steve at thetaylorfamily.org.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Pedal powered fan
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <stoves at listserv.repp.org>
> Message-ID: <45865f25.2ca.19cb.637606394 at thetaylorfamily.org.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
>> Apart from Peter Singer's bellows idea, is clockwork a
>> technology that  effectively still exists in the relevant
>> countries? And would it deliver  enough power with
>> reasonable intervals between winding? I can't see it being
>> cheaper than electrical parts, though.
>
> I suspect with Tevor Bayliss' clockwork radio, the relevent
> tech probably still exists.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
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>
> End of Stoves Digest, Vol 6, Issue 26
> *************************************
>
>
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