[Stoves] RE: Urban Poor

Mon May 22 05:11:17 CDT 2006

 Hi Allbody,

I just joined your mailing list as I have an interest in stoves for the poor
in developing countries (mainly Southern Africa).

Currently in South Africa (RSA) the most common (not popular) stove and fuel
is the Paraffin stove (US$10) with paraffin retailing at (US$.70 per litre ~
US$60 per month). The only problem Is that the stoves are not stable and
usually tip over and burn down a whole community of shacks. Unlike most
urban poor, here in South africa people wuold also like a stove they can be
proud of! 

For RSA the requirements are 

Safe (stable and no harmful emissions)
Cheap fuel
Efficient (fast to boil)
Long lasting

In this order!

I am currently trying to introduce a stove using gel fuel because a gel has
a lower flow rate to a liquid. However, as the gel fuel is derived from
ethanol there were concerns that it will produce acetyldehyde fumes or even
acrolein and is more expensive than paraffin (USD1.4 per liter)? Does
anybody know of a way to produce the gel fuel cheaply? There are also chaps
working on a paraffin stove that switches off if it falls over. 

My aim is to develop some self shutting device that will cut off the air in
the gel stoves as the gel stops burning if there is no air. Does anybody
know of any stove valves that shut off on heavy contact?

I hope I have not derialed your discussion!

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of
stoves-request at listserv.repp.org
Sent: 21 May 2006 06:00 PM
To: stoves at listserv.repp.org
Subject: Stoves Digest, Vol 22, Issue 23

Send Stoves mailing list submissions to
	stoves at listserv.repp.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	stoves-request at listserv.repp.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	stoves-owner at listserv.repp.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than
"Re: Contents of Stoves digest..."

Today's Topics:

   1. Urban poor (Thomas Reed)
   2. Re: Urban poor (Kevin Chisholm)
   3. Re: Glass Stoves (Thomas Reed)
   4. RE: RE Adding a fan (Tom Miles)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 05:22:10 -0600
From: Thomas Reed <tombreed at comcast.net>
Subject: [Stoves] Urban poor
To: Dean Still <dstill at epud.net>
Cc: 'STOVES' <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Message-ID: <44704D62.8070808 at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Dear Dean and All:

Half the world's developing country population is rural and they already are
cooking with wood, dung, etc on stoves costing <$10. 

But the other half are urban and they are in bondage to charcoal, kerosene
and propane whose prices are soaring.  They are paying >$10/mo for these
fuels and a $30 stove burning $3 fuel would be a great boon.  
The principles embodied in our WoodGas campstove can be adapted for an urban
family. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dean, you showed me a book you were bringing out soon with our WoodGas
cookstove.  .  Is it out?

Yours truly,

TOM REED          BEF

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dean Still wrote:

>Dear Kevin,
>
>Answering in CAPS in your text below. THESE ANSWERS ALL BEGIN WITH: IN 
>MY HUMBLE OPINION!
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Kevin Chisholm [mailto:kchisholm at ca.inter.net]
>Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 5:31 PM
>To: Dean Still; 'STOVES'
>Subject: Re: [Stoves] RE Adding a fan
>
>Dear Dean
>...del...>
>  
>
>>For me research is directed by the goal of a most helpful $2-$5 stove.
>>    
>>
>
>What areas of the World require a $2-$5 stove? What about if it ended 
>up costing $10?
>
>I THINK THAT THERE ARE FOLKS WHO ARE BEST SERVED BY A TEN DOLLAR STOVE 
>BUT THAT THE BASE OF THE PYRAMID IS BETWEEN TWO TO FIVE DOLLARS. HOPE 
>THAT I'M BEING PESSIMISTIC.
>
>Does this assume an "owner built stove", or is there an allowance for 
>them to be made locally, and sold to local people?
>
>I AM THINKING ABOUT FACTORY MADE STOVES FOR SALE AT A RETAIL LEVEL.
>
> So
>  
>
>>far that seems to include, not in order:
>>
>>Cooks like how it cooks food
>>    
>>
>
>Could you outline what they like, and what they don't like about "how 
>it cooks food?"
>
>IT VARIES SO A STOVE HAS TO BE DESIGNED PER AREA.
>
>  
>
>>Side fed long sticks
>>    
>>
>
>What would be the range in diameter of teh sticks, and teh range in 
>poisture
>
>contents?
>
>SAME AS ABOVE.
>
>  
>
>>Fast to boil
>>    
>>
>What is their perception of "fast to boil?"
>
>AT LEAST AS FAST AS THE OPEN FIRE SAY ABOUT 25 MINUTES TO BOIL 5 LITRES.
>
>  
>
>>Fuel efficient to simmer (good turndown)
>>    
>>
>What would be an acceptable turn-down ratio? What is teh maximum 
>targeted heat input rate, and what is the heat input rate required for
simmering?
>FOUR TO SIX THOUSAND WATTS FOR HIGH POWER. ONE THIRD THAT AT LOW POWER.
>  
>
>>Safe
>>    
>>
>What are the criteria to be met for the stove to be termed "safe?"
>NO BURNS, DOESN'T TIP OVER, ETC.
>
>  
>
>>When used does not damage health of user (ventilation helps a lot 
>>here!!)
>>    
>>
>Are tehre any stoves that vent inside teh living space that do not 
>damage health?
>
>IF THERE IS A LOT OF VENTILATION A REALLY CLEAN BURNING STOVE CAN BE 
>USED INDOORS WITHOUT IMMEDIATE HEALTH EFFECTS BUT UNVENTED STOVES 
>SHOULD ONLY BE USED UNDER A VERANDA, ETC. STOVES WITH CHIMNEYS CAN 
>REMOVE ESSENTIALLY ALL POLLUTION FROM THE ROOM.
>
>  
>
>>$2-$5
>>    
>>

>>Long lasting
>>    
>>
>TWO YEARS?
>
>What is the minimum acceptable number of uses for a $2 to $5 stove?
>  
>
>>MEETS CONSUMERS REQUIREMENTS WHICH VARY.
>>I'll try to figure out if a chimney could generate enough force but 
>>I'll bet that Tom or Paul already know how much force is needed and 
>>you can translate that into chimney height? I think of fans as 
>>plugging into the wall because of the $5 cost but that is most likely 
>>limited vision on my part.
>>    
>>
>
>What percentage of the people using a stove like this would have access to 
>wall power?
>
>NOT SURE.
>
>Dean, your comments on teh above would be most helpful to us who are "at a 
>distance" from the problem. We could get a much better appreciation of what

>you are up against.
>
>Best wishes for every success.
>LET'S SUCCEED TOGETHER.
>
>Kevin
>  
>
> 
>
>_______________________________________________
>Stoves mailing list
>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>http://www.bioenergylists.org
>
>
>  
>

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 09:24:00 -0300
From: "Kevin Chisholm" <kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Urban poor
To: "Thomas Reed" <tombreed at comcast.net>,	"Dean Still"
	<dstill at epud.net>
Cc: 'STOVES' <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Message-ID: <000d01c67cd1$73854240$3616ba89 at kevin28mxtjznn>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=response

Dear Tom

Dean is targeting for a $2-$5 stove that is intended to cope with fuels of 
varying moisture and diameter, long life, high performance, 3:1 turndown 
ratio, and clean enough that it is not a health hazard. This is a daunting 
task. However, even if he "fails", and it ends up costing double his target 
price, a $4 to $8 stove would be an awesome achievement.

Your stove sells for about $US55 plus shipping to US Sites. What would you 
estimate would be the cost of getting this stove into the hands of the 
people that Dean is targeting to serve?

You indicate on your website that you are targeting the high end US Camping 
Market now. What is the lowest price you feel you could make the stove 
available for, once you get your volume up?

Given that batteries are a requirement for battery operated stoves, would a 
package consisting of solar cells, a battery charger, and two sets of 
batteries be the cheapest way to enable the stoves to be powered? What would

you estimate the cost of such a power pack to be?

What would you feel would be other potentially feasible ways of getting the 
power required to operate battery powered stoves in the markets Dean is 
targeting to serve?

Best wishes,

Kevin

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Thomas Reed" <tombreed at comcast.net>
To: "Dean Still" <dstill at epud.net>
Cc: "'STOVES'" <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 8:22 AM
Subject: [Stoves] Urban poor

> Dear Dean and All:
>
> Half the world's developing country population is rural and they already 
> are cooking with wood, dung, etc on stoves costing <$10.
> But the other half are urban and they are in bondage to charcoal, kerosene

> and propane whose prices are soaring.  They are paying >$10/mo for these 
> fuels and a $30 stove burning $3 fuel would be a great boon.  The 
> principles embodied in our WoodGas campstove can be adapted for an urban 
> family.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Dean, you showed me a book you were bringing out soon with our WoodGas 
> cookstove.  .  Is it out?
>
> Yours truly,
>
> TOM REED          BEF
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dean Still wrote:
>
>>Dear Kevin,
>>
>>Answering in CAPS in your text below. THESE ANSWERS ALL BEGIN WITH: IN MY
>>HUMBLE OPINION!
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Kevin Chisholm [mailto:kchisholm at ca.inter.net] Sent: Saturday, May 
>>20, 2006 5:31 PM
>>To: Dean Still; 'STOVES'
>>Subject: Re: [Stoves] RE Adding a fan
>>
>>Dear Dean
>>...del...>
>>
>>>For me research is directed by the goal of a most helpful $2-$5 stove.
>>>
>>
>>What areas of the World require a $2-$5 stove? What about if it ended up 
>>costing $10?
>>
>>I THINK THAT THERE ARE FOLKS WHO ARE BEST SERVED BY A TEN DOLLAR STOVE BUT
>>THAT THE BASE OF THE PYRAMID IS BETWEEN TWO TO FIVE DOLLARS. HOPE THAT I'M
>>BEING PESSIMISTIC.
>>
>>Does this assume an "owner built stove", or is there an allowance for them

>>to be made locally, and sold to local people?
>>
>>I AM THINKING ABOUT FACTORY MADE STOVES FOR SALE AT A RETAIL LEVEL.
>>
>> So
>>
>>>far that seems to include, not in order:
>>>
>>>Cooks like how it cooks food
>>>
>>
>>Could you outline what they like, and what they don't like about "how it 
>>cooks food?"
>>
>>IT VARIES SO A STOVE HAS TO BE DESIGNED PER AREA.
>>
>>
>>>Side fed long sticks
>>>
>>
>>What would be the range in diameter of teh sticks, and teh range in 
>>poisture
>>
>>contents?
>>
>>SAME AS ABOVE.
>>
>>
>>>Fast to boil
>>>
>>What is their perception of "fast to boil?"
>>
>>AT LEAST AS FAST AS THE OPEN FIRE SAY ABOUT 25 MINUTES TO BOIL 5 LITRES.
>>
>>
>>>Fuel efficient to simmer (good turndown)
>>>
>>What would be an acceptable turn-down ratio? What is teh maximum targeted 
>>heat input rate, and what is the heat input rate required for simmering?
>>FOUR TO SIX THOUSAND WATTS FOR HIGH POWER. ONE THIRD THAT AT LOW POWER.
>>
>>>Safe
>>>
>>What are the criteria to be met for the stove to be termed "safe?"
>>NO BURNS, DOESN'T TIP OVER, ETC.
>>
>>
>>>When used does not damage health of user (ventilation helps a lot here!!)
>>>
>>Are tehre any stoves that vent inside teh living space that do not damage 
>>health?
>>
>>IF THERE IS A LOT OF VENTILATION A REALLY CLEAN BURNING STOVE CAN BE USED
>>INDOORS WITHOUT IMMEDIATE HEALTH EFFECTS BUT UNVENTED STOVES SHOULD ONLY 
>>BE
>>USED UNDER A VERANDA, ETC. STOVES WITH CHIMNEYS CAN REMOVE ESSENTIALLY ALL
>>POLLUTION FROM THE ROOM.
>>
>>
>>>$2-$5
>>>
>
>>>Long lasting
>>>
>>TWO YEARS?
>>
>>What is the minimum acceptable number of uses for a $2 to $5 stove?
>>
>>>MEETS CONSUMERS REQUIREMENTS WHICH VARY.
>>>I'll try to figure out if a chimney could generate enough force but I'll 
>>>bet
>>>that Tom or Paul already know how much force is needed and you can 
>>>translate
>>>that into chimney height? I think of fans as plugging into the wall 
>>>because
>>>of the $5 cost but that is most likely limited vision on my part.
>>>
>>
>>What percentage of the people using a stove like this would have access to

>>wall power?
>>
>>NOT SURE.
>>
>>Dean, your comments on teh above would be most helpful to us who are "at a

>>distance" from the problem. We could get a much better appreciation of 
>>what you are up against.
>>
>>Best wishes for every success.
>>LET'S SUCCEED TOGETHER.
>>
>>Kevin
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Stoves mailing list
>>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>>http://www.bioenergylists.org
>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> http://www.bioenergylists.org 

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 06:57:49 -0600
From: Thomas Reed <tombreed at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Glass Stoves
To: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispin at newdawn.sz>
Cc: GASIFICATION <GASIFICATION at listserv.repp.org>,	Stoves
	<stoves at listserv.repp.org>
Message-ID: <447063CD.2030503 at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Dear Crispin and all:

Quartz  (and Vycor) has a thermal expansion coeficient of < 1*10^-6 and 
you can pour cold water on a white hot piece.  Widely available in many 
sizes. 

I have been using a 5 cm diameter "glass gasifier" made with Pyrex to 
observe gasification of biomass and test new fuels.  Very instructive.   
A few tubes have cracked from shock, but I usually get 2-3 runs out of 
them. 

TOM REED           BEF

Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:

>Dear Friends
>
>I was speaking to a glass technician about the possibility of making stove
components out of low expansion glass.  He thinks that the expansion is too
high but offered the following benchmarks:
>
>Ordinary glass can take a temperature difference of about 100 degrees C
from one side to the other.  If you heat a piece of such glass to 100 and
pour cold water on it, it will probably not break.
>
>Pyrex (boron silicate) glass can take about 300 degrees of thermal shock.
The top of some stoves is a flat sheet of glass and the electric elements
underneath get red hot. The temperature difference between the two sides
must surely be greater than 300 degrees, yes?  They do not break if you drop
water onto the hot area.  So I am wondering if there is another type of
glass that is 'beyond Pyrex' and which can take high enough shocks to be
used as a wood stove component, for example the grate.
>
>Something that would be useful is if any of you can corroborate the thermal
expansion figures this guy mentioned:  90 x 10^-6 for regular glass and 30 x
10^-6 for pyrex-type glass without soda-ash in it.  My gut feeling is that
these numbers are impossibly high given that clay is typically 7.  Perhaps
they are 9.0 and 3.0.
>
>Anyone have comments on this?
>
>Thanks
>Crispin
>_______________________________________________
>Stoves mailing list
>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>http://www.bioenergylists.org
>
>
>  
>

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 08:16:52 -0700
From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com>
Subject: RE: [Stoves] RE Adding a fan
To: "'Dean Still'" <dstill at epud.net>,	"'STOVES'"
	<STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Message-ID: <20060521151645.8EF1FB0CC at smtpauth.easystreet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="US-ASCII"

See pictures and performance of Dean's prototype Rocket Stove with Fan at
www.bioenergylists.org

Tom Miles

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of Dean Still
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 8:02 PM
To: 'STOVES'
Subject: RE: [Stoves] RE Adding a fan

Dear Kevin,

Answering in CAPS in your text below. THESE ANSWERS ALL BEGIN WITH: IN MY
HUMBLE OPINION!

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Chisholm [mailto:kchisholm at ca.inter.net] 
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 5:31 PM
To: Dean Still; 'STOVES'
Subject: Re: [Stoves] RE Adding a fan

Dear Dean
...del...>
> For me research is directed by the goal of a most helpful $2-$5 stove.

What areas of the World require a $2-$5 stove? What about if it ended up 
costing $10?

I THINK THAT THERE ARE FOLKS WHO ARE BEST SERVED BY A TEN DOLLAR STOVE BUT
THAT THE BASE OF THE PYRAMID IS BETWEEN TWO TO FIVE DOLLARS. HOPE THAT I'M
BEING PESSIMISTIC.

Does this assume an "owner built stove", or is there an allowance for them 
to be made locally, and sold to local people?

I AM THINKING ABOUT FACTORY MADE STOVES FOR SALE AT A RETAIL LEVEL.

 So
> far that seems to include, not in order:
>
> Cooks like how it cooks food

Could you outline what they like, and what they don't like about "how it 
cooks food?"

IT VARIES SO A STOVE HAS TO BE DESIGNED PER AREA.

> Side fed long sticks

What would be the range in diameter of teh sticks, and teh range in poisture

contents?

SAME AS ABOVE.

> Fast to boil
What is their perception of "fast to boil?"

AT LEAST AS FAST AS THE OPEN FIRE SAY ABOUT 25 MINUTES TO BOIL 5 LITRES.

> Fuel efficient to simmer (good turndown)
What would be an acceptable turn-down ratio? What is teh maximum targeted 
heat input rate, and what is the heat input rate required for simmering?
FOUR TO SIX THOUSAND WATTS FOR HIGH POWER. ONE THIRD THAT AT LOW POWER.
> Safe
What are the criteria to be met for the stove to be termed "safe?"
NO BURNS, DOESN'T TIP OVER, ETC.

> When used does not damage health of user (ventilation helps a lot here!!)
Are tehre any stoves that vent inside teh living space that do not damage 
health?

IF THERE IS A LOT OF VENTILATION A REALLY CLEAN BURNING STOVE CAN BE USED
INDOORS WITHOUT IMMEDIATE HEALTH EFFECTS BUT UNVENTED STOVES SHOULD ONLY BE
USED UNDER A VERANDA, ETC. STOVES WITH CHIMNEYS CAN REMOVE ESSENTIALLY ALL
POLLUTION FROM THE ROOM.

> $2-$5
Could you please elaborate further on teh $2-$5 cost range target? Is this 
"the cost of materials only, delivered to the site", or does it include a 
labor allowance for building it? What about cost of distributing materials 
to the site? What about the cost of training people how to build and operate

tehm?  etc.
GOOD STOVES CAN BE MADE WITHIN THAT PRICE RANGE WITH PROFITS FOR
MANUFACTURERS AND SALES.

> Long lasting
TWO YEARS?

What is the minimum acceptable number of uses for a $2 to $5 stove?
>MEETS CONSUMERS REQUIREMENTS WHICH VARY.
> I'll try to figure out if a chimney could generate enough force but I'll 
> bet
> that Tom or Paul already know how much force is needed and you can 
> translate
> that into chimney height? I think of fans as plugging into the wall 
> because
> of the $5 cost but that is most likely limited vision on my part.

What percentage of the people using a stove like this would have access to 
wall power?

NOT SURE.

Dean, your comments on teh above would be most helpful to us who are "at a 
distance" from the problem. We could get a much better appreciation of what 
you are up against.

Best wishes for every success.
LET'S SUCCEED TOGETHER.

Kevin
>

_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
Stoves at listserv.repp.org
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
http://www.bioenergylists.org

------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
Stoves at listserv.repp.org
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

End of Stoves Digest, Vol 22, Issue 23
**************************************

********************
Nedbank Limited Reg No 1951/000009/06. The following link displays the names of the Nedbank Board of Directors and Company Secretary. [ http://www.nedbank.co.za/terms/DirectorsNedbank.htm ]
This email is confidential and is intended for the addressee only. The following link will take you to Nedbank's legal notice. [ http://www.nedbank.co.za/terms/EmailDisclaimer.htm ]
********************