[Stoves] The PROTOS Plant Oil Cooker

[Keith Addison]

>Errrr. Sorry Keith but I don't quite understand what is unsustainable about
>planting crops, using most of the seed for food, or energy and keeping some
>seed for the next planting season?? Livestock is not essential to all
>farming systems surely!?

Possible for a while. But sustainable means indefinitely. You say 
farming systems, and yes it's essential. Farming has a long and 
diverse global history, but there's no record of any vegetarian-based 
farming system surviving the test of time. There is no traditional 
vegetarian-based farming system. The soil fertility always winds down 
in the end, with the inevitable effects on everything higher up in 
the pyramid that's based on the soil life.

Nature doesn't attempt it either:

"What are the main principles underlying Nature's agriculture? These 
can most easily be seen in operation in our woods and forests. Mixed 
farming is the rule: plants are always found with animals: many 
species of plants and of animals all live together. In the forest 
every form of animal life, from mammals to the simplest 
invertebrates, occurs. The vegetable kingdom exhibits a similar 
range: there is never any attempt at monoculture: mixed crops and 
mixed farming are the rule."
http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/howardAT/AT1.html
An Agricultural Testament - Albert Howard - 1
Nature's Methods of Soil Management

I've seen some very long arguments about all this. I'd rather refer 
you to this:
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg58252.html
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming

And to the previous discussion mentioned:

http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg51941.html
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again

The whole thread is linked at the end of the page, it's all covered, 
lots of refs and source material (though there's much more too).

Best

Keith


>Simon
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Keith Addison" <keith at journeytoforever.org>
>To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at listserv.repp.org>
>Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 2:30 PM
>Subject: Re: [Stoves] The PROTOS Plant Oil Cooker
>
>
> > >One variation that springs immediately to mind is to cut out the
>livestock
> > >altogether and just feed the cake into a digester (for bio-gas) close to
>the
> > >oil expeller.
> >
> > Biofuels crops have to be grown, and they're supposed to be
> > renewable/sustainable. Remove the livestock from the equation and
> > you're left with an unsustainable farming system.
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Keith
> >
> >
> >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Keith Addison" <keith at journeytoforever.org>
> > >To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at listserv.repp.org>
> > >Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 10:17 PM
> > >Subject: Re: [Stoves] The PROTOS Plant Oil Cooker
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hello Tom, Kevin
> > > >
> > > > >Dear Tom
> > > > >
> > > > >Tom Miles wrote:
> > > > > > Oilseed and bio-oil experts tell me that their biggest concern
> > > > >with Jatropha
> > > > > > is that the byproduct meal from most varieties is toxic to humans
>and
> > > > > > animals.
> > > > >
> > > > >I think those are the very reasons why the Indian Government is
> > > > >promoting Jatropha... they have drawn a line, and do not permit
> > > > >conversion of food crops into energy.
> > > > >
> > > > >I would suggest that this is a very enlightened view, the wisdom of
> > > > >which will become increasingly apparent.
> > > >
> > > > There's a place for it.
> > > >
> > > > On the other hand, not being able to feed the seedcake to livestock
> > > > makes for a much less efficient production system. Jatropha folks say
> > > > you can use the seedcake as an organic fertiliser and that it has
> > > > medical uses and so on, but this doesn't compare with using it as
> > > > livestock feed, with, eg, some of the livestock manure going to an
> > > > anaerobic digester to produce methane gas for heating the biodiesel
> > > > process, or for running the diesel motor that generates power for the
> > > > oil press and the pump. The digestor sludge joins more manure and
> > > > crop residues in the compost pile, which fertilises the soil for
> > > > further production of the oilseed and other crops, and so on. Lots of
> > > > variations on this theme.
> > > >
> > > > Sustainable biofuels (and indeed energy) is local and small-scale,
> > > > and in many settings depends on this kind of integration.
> > > >
> > > > With an oil feedstock that doesn't produce livestock feed supplement
> > > > as a by-product the opportunities for such integrated production are
> > > > far fewer.
> > > >
> > > > The food-vs fuel scare really only applies to the previous paradigm
> > > > of industrialised agricultural production of commodities for trade
> > > > rather than food for people to eat (also a local matter), and the
> > > > centralised production and supply of fuels and energy, which has to
> > > > be decentralised if there's to be a sustainable energy future -
> > > > impossible with fossil fuels, but not with biofuels and biomass.
> > > >
> > > > Best
> > > >
> > > > Keith
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >Best wishes,
> > > > >
> > > > >Kevin
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tom Miles
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> > > > > > [mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of Simon and
>Zoe
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 2:21 AM
> > > > > > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] The PROTOS Plant Oil Cooker
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It seems that Jatropha can potentially have two advantages over
>seed
> > >from
> > > > > > other plants:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1. It can grow on land which is otherwise unsuitable for
>agricultural
> > > > > > production, it can even be planted as a stabiliser in areas of
> > > > >soil erosion,
> > > > > > producing seeds with 1 year of planting.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2. Many organisations advertise very large potential yields from
> > >Jatropha
> > > > > > (up to 12 tonnes per hectare), on the other hand it seems there
>have
> > >also
> > > > > > been many disappointing projects in India with yields below 1
>tonne
> > >per
> > > > > > hectare the norm and many farmers giving up altogether on the
>plants.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "David G. LeVine" <dlevine at speakeasy.net>
> > > > > > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
><stoves at listserv.repp.org>
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 1:00 AM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] The PROTOS Plant Oil Cooker
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> At 02:45 AM 5/2/2007, you wrote:
> > > > > >>> On the subject of use of castor oil etc I think the stovers
>maybe
> > > > > > interested
> > > > > >>> in reading a keynote lecture I gave recently at National
>Oilseeds
> > > > > >>> conference. www.nariphaltan.org/biofuels.pdf
> > > > > >> Then I have a question.  With Castor producing so much more
>energy
> > > > > >> per hectare, whi are less productive plants being pushed so hard?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> David G. LeVine
> > > > > >> Nashua, NH  03060