[Stoves] The PROTOS Plant Oil Cooker

Fri May 4 22:14:20 CDT 2007

OK, I can believe that soils need fertiliser & that livestock fertiliser is
probably the best all round.

The point I orginally intended to make was that bio-gas digesters can take
more than just manure as feedstock. So I guess it would be possible to
digest the mildly toxic oil seed cake directly, without first passing it
through a cow! Adding manure too would of course help to ensure that
methanogens levels are maintained in the digester.

In the meantime that message seems to be coming over loud and clear from
lots of other sources too (Papaya etc.).

cheers

Simon

----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Addison" <keith at journeytoforever.org>
To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 11:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] The PROTOS Plant Oil Cooker

> >Errrr. Sorry Keith but I don't quite understand what is unsustainable
about
> >planting crops, using most of the seed for food, or energy and keeping
some
> >seed for the next planting season?? Livestock is not essential to all
> >farming systems surely!?
>
> Possible for a while. But sustainable means indefinitely. You say
> farming systems, and yes it's essential. Farming has a long and
> diverse global history, but there's no record of any vegetarian-based
> farming system surviving the test of time. There is no traditional
> vegetarian-based farming system. The soil fertility always winds down
> in the end, with the inevitable effects on everything higher up in
> the pyramid that's based on the soil life.
>
> Nature doesn't attempt it either:
>
> "What are the main principles underlying Nature's agriculture? These
> can most easily be seen in operation in our woods and forests. Mixed
> farming is the rule: plants are always found with animals: many
> species of plants and of animals all live together. In the forest
> every form of animal life, from mammals to the simplest
> invertebrates, occurs. The vegetable kingdom exhibits a similar
> range: there is never any attempt at monoculture: mixed crops and
> mixed farming are the rule."
> http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/howardAT/AT1.html
> An Agricultural Testament - Albert Howard - 1
> Nature's Methods of Soil Management
>
> I've seen some very long arguments about all this. I'd rather refer
> you to this:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg58252.html
> Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
>
> And to the previous discussion mentioned:
>
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg51941.html
> Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
>
> The whole thread is linked at the end of the page, it's all covered,
> lots of refs and source material (though there's much more too).
>
> Best
>
> Keith
>
>
> >Simon
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Keith Addison" <keith at journeytoforever.org>
> >To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at listserv.repp.org>
> >Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 2:30 PM
> >Subject: Re: [Stoves] The PROTOS Plant Oil Cooker
> >
> >
> > > >One variation that springs immediately to mind is to cut out the
> >livestock
> > > >altogether and just feed the cake into a digester (for bio-gas) close
to
> >the
> > > >oil expeller.
> > >
> > > Biofuels crops have to be grown, and they're supposed to be
> > > renewable/sustainable. Remove the livestock from the equation and
> > > you're left with an unsustainable farming system.
> > >
> > > Best
> > >
> > > Keith
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Keith Addison" <keith at journeytoforever.org>
> > > >To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at listserv.repp.org>
> > > >Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 10:17 PM
> > > >Subject: Re: [Stoves] The PROTOS Plant Oil Cooker
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hello Tom, Kevin
> > > > >
> > > > > >Dear Tom
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Tom Miles wrote:
> > > > > > > Oilseed and bio-oil experts tell me that their biggest concern
> > > > > >with Jatropha
> > > > > > > is that the byproduct meal from most varieties is toxic to
humans
> >and
> > > > > > > animals.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I think those are the very reasons why the Indian Government is
> > > > > >promoting Jatropha... they have drawn a line, and do not permit
> > > > > >conversion of food crops into energy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I would suggest that this is a very enlightened view, the wisdom
of
> > > > > >which will become increasingly apparent.
> > > > >
> > > > > There's a place for it.
> > > > >
> > > > > On the other hand, not being able to feed the seedcake to
livestock
> > > > > makes for a much less efficient production system. Jatropha folks
say
> > > > > you can use the seedcake as an organic fertiliser and that it has
> > > > > medical uses and so on, but this doesn't compare with using it as
> > > > > livestock feed, with, eg, some of the livestock manure going to an
> > > > > anaerobic digester to produce methane gas for heating the
biodiesel
> > > > > process, or for running the diesel motor that generates power for
the
> > > > > oil press and the pump. The digestor sludge joins more manure and
> > > > > crop residues in the compost pile, which fertilises the soil for
> > > > > further production of the oilseed and other crops, and so on. Lots
of
> > > > > variations on this theme.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sustainable biofuels (and indeed energy) is local and small-scale,
> > > > > and in many settings depends on this kind of integration.
> > > > >
> > > > > With an oil feedstock that doesn't produce livestock feed
supplement
> > > > > as a by-product the opportunities for such integrated production
are
> > > > > far fewer.
> > > > >
> > > > > The food-vs fuel scare really only applies to the previous
paradigm
> > > > > of industrialised agricultural production of commodities for trade
> > > > > rather than food for people to eat (also a local matter), and the
> > > > > centralised production and supply of fuels and energy, which has
to
> > > > > be decentralised if there's to be a sustainable energy future -
> > > > > impossible with fossil fuels, but not with biofuels and biomass.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best
> > > > >
> > > > > Keith
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >Best wishes,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Kevin
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Tom Miles
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> > > > > > > [mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of Simon
and
> >Zoe
> > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 2:21 AM
> > > > > > > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] The PROTOS Plant Oil Cooker
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It seems that Jatropha can potentially have two advantages
over
> >seed
> > > >from
> > > > > > > other plants:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1. It can grow on land which is otherwise unsuitable for
> >agricultural
> > > > > > > production, it can even be planted as a stabiliser in areas of
> > > > > >soil erosion,
> > > > > > > producing seeds with 1 year of planting.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2. Many organisations advertise very large potential yields
from
> > > >Jatropha
> > > > > > > (up to 12 tonnes per hectare), on the other hand it seems
there
> >have
> > > >also
> > > > > > > been many disappointing projects in India with yields below 1
> >tonne
> > > >per
> > > > > > > hectare the norm and many farmers giving up altogether on the
> >plants.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "David G. LeVine" <dlevine at speakeasy.net>
> > > > > > > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
> ><stoves at listserv.repp.org>
> > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 1:00 AM
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] The PROTOS Plant Oil Cooker
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> At 02:45 AM 5/2/2007, you wrote:
> > > > > > >>> On the subject of use of castor oil etc I think the stovers
> >maybe
> > > > > > > interested
> > > > > > >>> in reading a keynote lecture I gave recently at National
> >Oilseeds
> > > > > > >>> conference. www.nariphaltan.org/biofuels.pdf
> > > > > > >> Then I have a question.  With Castor producing so much more
> >energy
> > > > > > >> per hectare, whi are less productive plants being pushed so
hard?
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> David G. LeVine
> > > > > > >> Nashua, NH  03060
>
>
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