[Stoves] Stoves using wood and charcoal at the same time

Thu Nov 1 19:45:18 EDT 2007

Dear Cornelio,
while going through some of the older correspondence I came across this
message from you. Charcoal does not produce a flame. It only glows.
Therefore, when using charcoal as fuel, the pot is kept almost touching the
burning coals. Wood produces a flame, and if the pot is kept too near the
burning wood, the volatiles in the flame condense on surface of the
relatively cool pot and form a lot of smoke and soot. Therefore, we do not
deliberately mix charcoal and wood. However, in any wood burning stove, the
wood always forms charcoal and the latter burns in any case along with the
wood. In the T-LUD stove, the charcoal can be saved and used separately in a
special charcoal burning stove.
Yours
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: cornelio torrijos <cctorrijos at gmail.com>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <stoves at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 5:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Stoves using wood and charcoal at the same time


> Hi A.D. Karve, C.V. Krishna and list,
>
> I greatly enjoy and carefully read and reread many posts in this forum for
> they are greatly instructive for me.
>
> Re biogas and other failures in India --interesting, and yes, we could
> probably learn from your failures. But I think I can learn more from your
> successes. In the midst of all those failures, which ones really worked
and
> under what circumstances? Why did the 3 or 5% work?
>
> Wood, sugarcane, grass, bamboo, rice straw and husks, corncobs and
stovers,
> and other plant biomass are available in substantial quantities in Asia
and
> I really would like to know how best to utilize these for cooking in more
> efficient, sustainable and more convenient ways. What interests me are
your
> successes which could possibly be replicated here in urban Manila, rural
> Philippines and elsewhere.
>
> Are there any stoves out there that can successfully (conveniently for
> cooks) burn several kinds of fuel all mixed together? For example, pieces
of
> wood and charcoal in the same stove?
>
> All the best,
>
> Cornelio
>
>
> On 10/14/07, adkarve <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in> wrote:
> >
> > Dear stovers,
> > C.V.Krishna narrated why improved stoves programme failed in India.
> > It is not just the improved cookstoves but also the biogas is a failure
in
> > India. In a country having 140 million rural families, we have today
only
> > 2
> > million working biogas plants. The dung based biogas plant is the
> > costliest
> > cooking device in the world, costing even more than a micro-wave
> > oven.  Only
> > rich dairy farmers can afford to have a dung based biogas plant. You get
> > at
> > least 4 times as much energy from dung if you burned it directly than if
> > you
> > converted it into methane.  Thus it is also a wasteful process. Our
> > experiments showed that dung cakes burned quite cleanly in a stove with
a
> > fan. Even the costliest model of such a stove costs only a tenth as much
> > as
> > a biogas plant. Biogas is good for countries having year round rainfall,
> > because under such conditions, one cannot dry the dung into cakes. But
in
> > India it can be dried very easily and used as fuel in a stove.
> > Yours
> > A.D.Karve
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Choppalli Venkata Krishna <krishnacreat1 at rediffmail.com>
> > To: <Stoves at listserv.repp.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 7:50 AM
> > Subject: [Stoves] Test that is ULTIMATE
> >
> >
> >
> >   Dear Frank
> > I confess my failure in promoting Improved Stoves as I missed the
> > following
> > vital points:-
> > 1- The Ministry (Govt. of India) after testing them, had approved 34
> > models
> > as Improved Cook stoves by '86 for dissemination in India.( The
programme
> > was launched as back as 1982).  We thought/took it granted that because
we
> > have done so much of brain exercise on Thermodynamics,/Heat Engines and
> > that
> > our work ( In the Laboratory) has been lauded by the Ministry, our
stoves
> > will be successful; we started dissemination programme.
> > 2- We totally forgot the fact that from the age of 7 a Rural Indian girl
> > learns Stove building and by the age of 12 she becomes an expert in
stoves
> > building SUITING TO HER FAMILY MEMBERS' COOKING HABITS, NEEDS & THE FUEL
> > AVAILABLE IN THE VISCINITY..
> > 3- We propagated that the stove which was used by her(the Rural Woman)
is
> > the worst one and that we have come up with an innovation that will save
> > 1-
> > Fuel;2- Ward off the Smoke; 3- Shall keep the Kitchen environment clean
4-
> > Heath hazards will no more occur. etc, etc.
> > 4- She (The beneficiary) was gentle enough to nod to our speeches as a
> > token
> > of acceptance and allowed the ICS to be built in her Kitchen.
> > 5- We went on building stoves in millions. Most of the STOVE BUILDERS
were
> > MALE members.
> > 6- After a year/less than a year, we discovered that either the
> > implemented
> > stove was UNUSED or DISMANTLED.
> > 7- On questioning of the reason of the statuesque, they (95% of them)
> > would
> > remain silent till one goes on pestering on the reasons of Non usage.
They
> > lied to us that the stove was good and that on certain occasions only
they
> > preferred to use it; some would lie that they were using the new
improved
> > stove till yesterday and that today (the day of our questioning) only
they
> > have not used it. None of them would say that THE STOVE IS NOT
> > APPROPRIATE/SUITABLE/CONVENIENT TO THEM.
> > 8- We also in the spree of achieving the target fixed by the Ministry
did
> > not spare any time to discuss with them WHAT ACTUALY THEY WANT; we went
on
> > IMPOSING OUR MODEL on them however inappropriate/appropriate it was to
the
> > user.
> > 9- In 1996 after a decade, more than 85 Improved Models were in India.
But
> > on introspection, the models those were disseminated in '84-85 did not
> > exist
> > in 87-88; the models of 86-87 were obsolete in 89-90 and so on the chain
> > continued.
> > 10- Saddest Part is none of us nor did the Ministry take cognizance of
the
> > episode and every year the Annual Report continued publishing the total
> > (cumulative from -82) number of ICS implemented and the quantum of wood
> > saved thereby. None of us had the wisdom to put a break to the run on
one
> > leg heading towards a wall. We never even assembled to introspect the
> > situation.
> > 11- Results- The National Programme on Improved Cook Stoves abruptly was
> > discontinued.
> > 12- It is some individual organizations that are able to sustain the
> > Mission
> > of ICS in India; but compared with the Rural households of the Country,
is
> > insignificant in numers.
> > 13- The reason for such success by a few Organizations today is: Utter
> > Patience in reaching the Goal; Involving the USER WOMEN in building the
> > stoves of their choice; follow up after implementation; understanding
the
> > users' needs; economy; use of appropriate and locally available material
> > and
> > stove-builders(women). And any other that makes a stove accepted by the
> > Users.
> >
> > We all must keep in my mind that 'There are as many stove-designs as
many
> > Houses'. Theory folowed by testing in par with the field needs and
> > invovement can definitely bring us success.
> >
> > WE can learn lessons from above and if we get the facts from the
> > successful
> > implementers the 'Talisman' they have used for their success, YES
> > our  Test
> > can be concluded as ULTIMATE.
> > Regards
> > -Krishna
> >
> >
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> >
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