[Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 31, Issue 5

Sat Jan 3 14:47:20 CST 2009

Dear Tom,

Countries have different markets, obviously. So different sorts of stove can
be sold, at different prices, to do different things.

The driver for stoves include safety, deforestation, IAP, global warming,
creation of a improved environment in the home, etc. For all these reasons,
stoves are supported by funders. So are green products in the USA that
wouldn't be made without subsidy.

I think that the job of the stove engineer, researcher, developer, etc. is
to bring along stoves that accomplish these goals at the lowest possible
cost. I lived on a ranch in Mexico for ten years. Good hammers, knives,
shovels were not available. Or they were very expensive. Things haven't
gotten better where I lived.

Yes, cell phones are everywhere but these are supported by giant companies
that invest in infrastructure, selling, etc. Why don't companies do the same
for hammers, knives, shovels and stoves?

I think because markets specialize in pushing in a big wave what the big
companies are doing, not in trying necessarily to help folks lead better
lives. Can we start a wave of getting standard meeting stoves into markets?

Yes, if we are lucky and work hard in collaboration.

Best,

Dean

On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 7:58 AM, tom abeles <tabeles at hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> Charlie makes some very critical points which I have not seen fully
> articulated.
>
>  Many wood burning stove configurations are possible based on the "rocket"
> concept. The technical aspects have/are well researched and understood. What
> has not been fully discussed is the issue of "markets" for the stoves. One
> of these issues is cost/financing. For example, in Central America, as
> Charlie notes, some of the ONIL stoves have been modified reducing their
> fuel efficiency. In many instances availability or cost in time/money of
> fuel and even smoke may not be seen as much of a problem as the size of the
> stove to meet the perceived cooking needs of the family.
>
> Second, there are many variances on the ONIL stove ranging  from a field
> fabricated units with a materials cost of about USD 20 to production units
> at about USD 100. Some are round and other rectangular, most use a variance
> on the comal or griddle and few use the cast, old fashioned cook stove, tops
> which can equal close to half the cost. The price at the upper end makes
> this a unit that is subsidized by NGO's and grants as opposed to the lower
> cost units which have been successfully micro-financed. It makes little
> difference if the units are factory fabricated or made locally, imported or
> made in country if the cost will not allow the product to enter the market
> economy
>
> It is my understanding that over 70% of Guatemala has access to cell phones
> and they also are aware of commercial products through electronic media and
> visits to towns. This would seem to say that acceptance and use needs to
> consider how these products are designed for the market and how the familes
> are approached. It seems like even products like coke and Avon make it into
> these communities.
>
> The situation in Africa or Asia may be signficantly different. But we must
> remember that cell phones and even computers/internet are becoming
> ubiquitous, internationally. This seems to imply that the relationships of
> the NGO's and their target communities is changing which means that for many
> products/services how they are made, distributed and serviced is changing or
> needs to change. And the funding agencies need to also understand this
> change.
>
> It has been shown that the informal economy pumps more capital into the
> local economy than all the development aid. And remittances, globally, also
> move these economies, as the local banks well understand. The two products,
> water filters and stoves, in many economies, can be mainstreamed. The
> research has been done and most work is now at a refinement stage. It may be
> time to let the market decide. Some NGO's well understand this, I believe.
> Given the global economic collapse, it may be time to take a hard look.
>
> thoughts?
>
> tom
>
> tom abeles
> tabeles at hotmail.com
>
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 18:01:59 -0800 (PST)
> > From: Charlie Sellers <csellers42 at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] energy efficient wood stoves in central america
> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <stoves at listserv.repp.org>
> > Message-ID: <23702.17315.qm at web52010.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > I happen to be in Guatemala building a few Justa-type stoves and fixing
> ONIL stoves which have been modified so that they can't save firewood -
> mainly I am getting more experience with implementation aspects (so that
> stoves aren't altered in the first place), but also seeing how cheaply
> stoves can be built for.  Of course for each location it is necessary to
> first "derive" (as in, determine from the basic facts) the stove design from
> the needs of the local cooks and the materials available - if you provide a
> stove that uses distant materials or that is not liked then you can neither
> expect cheap nor success.
> >
> > Much of my costs here are tied up in the metal parts - a hardware store 2
> hole plancha and a custom grate, with a metal chimney being optional since
> masonry is possible - with the plancha alone costing ~$USD 41.  Cement is
> the other necessary costly item at at least $8 for the minimum amount -
> other things are either not very expensive or can perhaps be made using
> somewhat found materials like stone and adobe.  A complication here for some
> styles of plancha stoves is the lack of an existing support platform in
> kitchens since they presently cook on the earth - pouring a small cement
> floor and building a table to bring the stove top to the right height
> increases the total cost and time significantly.
> >
> > But realistically I find it best to use bought cement blocks and bricks
> for the platform and body of the stove - few here are interested in the
> effort needed for stone, and adobe is not popular if people know that there
> is any other option; speed of construction is worth something too.  Cement
> bodies, like the ONIL stove, can be made more locally (distributed
> manufacturing) to save on transportation costs and they just take forms, but
> I haven't priced out this option - I have no desire to duplicate Don
> O'Neal's work, just learn from it!  The ONIL stove uses a beautiful cast
> iron plancha (in 2 parts) that I wish I knew the cost of - I can have custom
> made flat steel ones welded up instead of buying the hardware store ones,
> but since the holes in them are greatly preferred for good reasons, they
> aren't cheap enough to be worth the trouble for small numbers.  And cast
> iron is the very best - we just all need to coordinate our efforts so that
> the same few
> >  factories are used when possible, since they just keep getting cheaper
> as the volume goes up.
> >
> > There are lots of other details I won't go into - there are better
> options for combustion chambers and insulation materials (at least compared
> to ashes - we are lucky to have volcanic pumice here) - but the bottom line
> appears to be cheaper durable planchas by any hook or crook, and then MAYBE
> we can approach $50... but with huge amounts of labor for construction
> (which you may need to pay for).  And don't forget that some designs can be
> modified if there is not proper training and follow up - I see this too
> often in some towns with ONIL stoves because concrete is easy to hack to get
> the desired bigger fuel opening.  It is very easy to end up with a stove
> which removes most of the smoke so gives the health benefits, but gives no
> fuel savings.
> >
> > I would love to compare experiences, designs, construction details,
> costs, etc. and think that this is what we'll need in order to be able to
> access carbon credit funding for this huge geographical region - a few
> stoves here and there is just not worth the trouble for those people - and
> have plenty of photos.
> >
> > Charlie
> >
>
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