[Strawbale] Low-Cost Solar Assisted Heat Pump System littlehouses cross post

[Michele O'Malley]

I am new to this site so hopefully someone will receive this.
I will be building a strawbale house in Ashton Idaho in a couple years. It will have a full basement with about 4 ft of it about ground, a main level, and an attic that might be used as a room someday. I am planning south facing windows, concrete floors, a wood stove with cob surround for more solar mass. I like the idea of collecting the solar energy during the HOT summer and storing it underground for the COLD, long winters there. This would heat the basement. Does anyone know if the Idaho winters are clear and sunny or cloudy? Ashton is about 45 min south of West Yellowstone. What would be your suggestions for alternative or back up heat for this house. I have 3 acres, a limited budget, no trees to obstruct the sun, will be an owner/builder, and will be in a subdivision with covenants so I can't do anything too bizarre.

Michele O.

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> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 22:10:37 -0800
> From: qi4u at yahoo.com
> To: qi4u at yahoo.com; speireag at gmail.com
> CC: STRAWBALE at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
> Subject: [Strawbale] Low-Cost Solar Assisted Heat Pump System littlehouses	cross post
> 
> Re:Low-Cost Solar Assisted Heat Pump System
> 
> From: "John" <patjohn51 at ...>
> 
> > I have been thinking along the same lines as you
> about a
> > portable a/c like the Amcor Nanomax A12000E. I
> thought,
> > why not remove the burner from an old gas water
> heater,
> > then run the warm air discharge into the bottom. The
> water
> > heater has a flu where the gases rise as the water
> is heated.
> > The warm air from the Amcor would follow the same
> path.
> 
> Hi John;
> 
> The internal flue works great for the high temperature
> gases
> of a propane or natural gas heater, but is not
> adequate for the
> low temperature air from the little air conditioner.
> However,
> there is several times that much surface area, to use
> in addition
> to the internal flue, on the outside of the tank,
> including the top
> and bottom surfaces. So, the tank gets placed inside
> of an
> insulated box, with enough space around it for the
> warm air
> to move. Also, instead of feeding the heat in at the
> bottom,
> where the coldest water is, the heat enters from the
> top,
> for the highest temperature to be near the warmest
> water,
> then exits at the bottom, where the coolest water is.
> 
> > A second water heater, on top, could be used to
> capture
> > more heat as a pre-heater
> 
> The preheater (if needed, to extract most of the heat
> from
> the air) would be "technically" below the other
> heater, though
> in the real world it could set physically next to it
> or even above
> it. It would only be down-stream from it in terms of
> the air flow,
> an up-stream from it, in terms of the water flow. It
> would be a
> classic counter-flow configuration. However, the first
> tank in
> the water flow would likely be a simple ambient heat
> exchanger
> tank, where a bare tank would warm the incoming ground
> water
> to room temperature. In my "Solar Loft" (new name)
> designs,
> there is a tank (or tanks) up at the peak of the heat
> storage
> attic, warmed by the sunspace air during the heating
> season,
> and by ambient air during the cooling season.
> 
> > First I question the efficiency of the Amcor Nanomax
> A12000E.
> > Assume, arbitrarily my room temperature is 75
> degrees. The unit
> > is inside the room so it does not have a condenser
> sitting outside
> > in 95 degree air. It's easy to remove the heat
> because it is doing
> > it at the expense of my cool room air.
> 
> The EER is the amount of cooling BTUs, over the amount
> of Watts. EER is usually based on performance at 95°F.
> Most of the air movement is from the room, then back
> into
> the room (after being cooled). The exhaust hose is
> only to
> carry the heat and moisture away, in what should be a
> smaller air stream.
> 
> > Now what I thought-- assumed, might make the Amcor
> > extra efficient
> 
> It seems to already be very efficient.
> 
> > was that the condesate water was used to help cool
> > the condenser (instead of using my cool inside air).
> 
> That would require a continuous supply of cool water.
> The maximum capacity of the unit is 38 pints/day,
> which
> is 1.58lb of water per hours, which would be a maximum
> of about 1500BTU/hr if it were 100% evaporated by the
> heat of the unit (not at all likely). The unit uses
> 829 Watts
> when on high. That represents 2833BTUs. 1500 is 53%
> of that. I think that is more than could actually be
> evaporated,
> because it would require boiling the water, which is
> likely to
> cause more heat loss. That 1500 BTUds would be when
> the unit is aready putting out 12000BTU/hr, and
> already
> carrying the water away. That appears to me ( I have
> not
> done a caculation on it, that it would require more
> room
> air to carry away the evaporated water, than it does
> to
> carry it away as mist. However, I suspect that since
> the reservoir is near the compressor, that there is
> already at least some of the heat transferred
> directly to the water, before it is misted.
> 
> > That way a problem (having to dump a bucket of
> water)
> 
> There is no "problem" of dumping water. The unit
> offers
> two options. 1) there is a drain tube, which can be
> run to
> a drain, sump, or outdoors. 2) There is a misting
> attachment
> for the tube, and a place to locate it in the exhaust
> tube, so
> that the water reservoir never needs to be emptied by
> hand.
> The water goes out the exhaust tube with the hot
> air......In
> other words, the heat of the air may evaporate the
> water,
> but only as it is going out the exhaust tube.
> 
> > had been turned into an advantage (the superior heat
> removal
> > of water and the reduction of already cooled air
> being wasted,
> > by pumping it outside).
> 
> Amcor has another line of portable AC, the "AL" line,
> which also have a swamp cooler function. You might
> find those interesting
> .
> >If I understand you correctly the Amcor merely blows
> > hot exiting air over the water, making it evaporate
> and
> > producing no cooling advantage.
> 
> No. The water is not evaporated.
> It is misted into the exhaust air, inside the tube,
> or it simply drains away, if a drain is available.
> 
> > That only wastes the water!
> 
> It is just condesate. The maximum is only 25oz/hr
> 
> > I could run a hose to it and use it to water plants.
> 
> Yes you could. That is one of the standard options
> that they offer. The unit even pumps the water for
> you.
> 
> > Why waste the water when it could help cool.
> 
> If your plants are in the house, then you are not
> getting rid of the heat, that would be in the water.
> The only way the 25oz/hr of water is going to
> have a significant cooling effect, is if you
> evaporate it, and exhaust it. Otherwise, you
> will just have a little warm water, in your
> house, releasing heat and humidity. Without
> evaporation the water, will not be able to
> absorb much more than maybe 30BTU.hr
> I think the people at Amcor have a pretty
> good idea of what is going on.
> 
> > Is the EER number a fraud because it is stealing and
> > exhausting my already cool air and appearing very
> efficient
> > because it is in working in a cool room that it is
> exploiting
> > while pumping warm air in at the same time?
> 
> We don't know for sure. What we do know is that
> compared to other portable units, it does more cooling
> per Watt, and that there is nothing about the units
> that
> suggests it exhausts any more air than any other unit.
> 
> However, in both of the configurations that I have
> proposed (1 extracting additional heat from the Solar
> heat storage, and 2) heating water), that is not a
> factor,
> because neither requires air to be exhausted to
> outdoors.
> In those cases the EER should stand on its own. Plus,
> the additional 2833BTU/hr that it takes to operate the
> unit, also goes into the heating of the house or
> water,
> increasing it efficiency even more...to a COP of 5.24
> 
> However, there are still warnings: Quote:
> 
> "Buyer Beware! Not all BTU ratings can be trusted.
> Just because the BTU's are stated to be high on
> specific
> air conditioning units, this does not mean it is
> necessarily
> true. Some manufacturers will exaggerate the BTU's on
> units to raise the possibility of selling them and
> others will
> be more conservative to cause lower EER ratings, so
> keep
> in mind that a low portable air conditioner EER may be
> mis-
> -leading. It is best not to allow the EER energy
> rating to be
> your only criteria for choosing an air conditioning
> unit.
> Research the unit you are considering for your home
> and
> you will be happier with your purchase. If you have
> any
> further questions, please go ahead and give us a
> call."
> 
> I have also noticed several online sellers, who claim
> EERs that are very much higher than the manufacturers
> rating, or than the BTU/Watts numbers posted on the
> very same pages that falsely claim the exagerated
> EERs.
> But, the 14.46 EER for the A12000E is not the claim
> of the manufacturer. It is the result of the claimed
> BTU
> output, and the claimed energy usage of the unit.
> I calculated that EER.
> 
> Even if it is a slight exageration, when used
> as heat pump the COP should still be around
> five, which means getting five times the heat
> out of it (for the same electricity), as with an
> electric resistance heater. Even if it were only
> double, that is a huge improvement, and for
> most people would be lower cost heat, than
> from any other conventional energy source.
> 
> I do not have a way to very accurately test
> the energy output of the unit. However, the
> only note I found, claiming that the Amcor unit
> was not as efficient as claimed, was based on
> the energy it used. I will be able to accurately
> measure that.
> 
> 
> -Laren Corie-
> Natural Solar Building Designs, Since 1975
> www.LarenCorie.com
> 
> 
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