[Strawbale] Low-Cost Solar Assisted Heat Pump System littlehouses cross post

[Michele O'Malley]

Thanks for the advise. I know the winters are brutal, it can get as low as -40F at night. Most people use propane I guess but I was really hoping to get away from the fossil fuels. Any suggestions for eco-friendly but affordable back up heat? I have heard that radiant floors are expensive and I really don't have a lot of money. What is the consensous with eco minded people about using electricity as back-up heat vs natural gas/propane.  Even now in my W. Pa home I tend to use an electric space heater (that looks like a woodstove) to take the chill off the main living space and not have the natural gas kick on. Any opinions on which is best both economically and environmentally?
I guess it is unrealistic to expect any solar design, passive or active to keep a house comfortable in that climate during the winter.

Michele O.

----------------------------------------
> From: itybts at hotmail.com
> To: michomd at hotmail.com
> CC: strawbale at listserv.repp.org
> Subject: Re: [Strawbale] Low-Cost Solar Assisted Heat Pump System littlehouses	cross post
> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 11:28:11 -0700
> 
> I live in lower Idaho.
> 
> Frankly, you should probably check the weather in the local newspapers to 
> determine winter cloudiness.   Idaho has unique weather patterns as do most 
> states.
> 
> The winter months can be bright and sunny, or dark and dreary.  In Boise 
> Idaho often it is very dark and overcast because of inversions.  Yet, 40 
> miles away where I live the sun is shining through.
> 
> I have known some winters to be dark all year and others to be sunny.  It 
> really depends on what year in the 7 year cycle we are in.  Rainy or dry.
> 
> It can drop below 0 for about 2 weeks the end of December.  I am told that 
> where you live it doesn't get as hot as here but gets colder in the winter. 
> So that's means, probably around -15 for a few weeks.
> 
> Than is really cold, however with some added humidity in your home it 
> doesn't feel that cold.
> 
> You have to plan to have back up heating for at least a month, just in case. 
> And plan for the winds, strong winds that drive the warm air out.
> 
> Hope that helps.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Michele O'Malley" <michomd at hotmail.com>
> To: "Shody Ryon" <qi4u at yahoo.com>; "Speireag Alden" <speireag at gmail.com>
> Cc: <strawbale at listserv.repp.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 8:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [Strawbale] Low-Cost Solar Assisted Heat Pump System 
> littlehouses cross post
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am new to this site so hopefully someone will receive this.
> I will be building a strawbale house in Ashton Idaho in a couple years. It 
> will have a full basement with about 4 ft of it about ground, a main level, 
> and an attic that might be used as a room someday. I am planning south 
> facing windows, concrete floors, a wood stove with cob surround for more 
> solar mass. I like the idea of collecting the solar energy during the HOT 
> summer and storing it underground for the COLD, long winters there. This 
> would heat the basement. Does anyone know if the Idaho winters are clear and 
> sunny or cloudy? Ashton is about 45 min south of West Yellowstone. What 
> would be your suggestions for alternative or back up heat for this house. I 
> have 3 acres, a limited budget, no trees to obstruct the sun, will be an 
> owner/builder, and will be in a subdivision with covenants so I can't do 
> anything too bizarre.
> 
> Michele O.
> 
> ----------------------------------------
> > Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 22:10:37 -0800
> > From: qi4u at yahoo.com
> > To: qi4u at yahoo.com; speireag at gmail.com
> > CC: STRAWBALE at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
> > Subject: [Strawbale] Low-Cost Solar Assisted Heat Pump System littlehouses 
> > cross post
> >
> > Re:Low-Cost Solar Assisted Heat Pump System
> >
> > From: "John" <patjohn51 at ...>
> >
> > > I have been thinking along the same lines as you
> > about a
> > > portable a/c like the Amcor Nanomax A12000E. I
> > thought,
> > > why not remove the burner from an old gas water
> > heater,
> > > then run the warm air discharge into the bottom. The
> > water
> > > heater has a flu where the gases rise as the water
> > is heated.
> > > The warm air from the Amcor would follow the same
> > path.
> >
> > Hi John;
> >
> > The internal flue works great for the high temperature
> > gases
> > of a propane or natural gas heater, but is not
> > adequate for the
> > low temperature air from the little air conditioner.
> > However,
> > there is several times that much surface area, to use
> > in addition
> > to the internal flue, on the outside of the tank,
> > including the top
> > and bottom surfaces. So, the tank gets placed inside
> > of an
> > insulated box, with enough space around it for the
> > warm air
> > to move. Also, instead of feeding the heat in at the
> > bottom,
> > where the coldest water is, the heat enters from the
> > top,
> > for the highest temperature to be near the warmest
> > water,
> > then exits at the bottom, where the coolest water is.
> >
> > > A second water heater, on top, could be used to
> > capture
> > > more heat as a pre-heater
> >
> > The preheater (if needed, to extract most of the heat
> > from
> > the air) would be "technically" below the other
> > heater, though
> > in the real world it could set physically next to it
> > or even above
> > it. It would only be down-stream from it in terms of
> > the air flow,
> > an up-stream from it, in terms of the water flow. It
> > would be a
> > classic counter-flow configuration. However, the first
> > tank in
> > the water flow would likely be a simple ambient heat
> > exchanger
> > tank, where a bare tank would warm the incoming ground
> > water
> > to room temperature. In my "Solar Loft" (new name)
> > designs,
> > there is a tank (or tanks) up at the peak of the heat
> > storage
> > attic, warmed by the sunspace air during the heating
> > season,
> > and by ambient air during the cooling season.
> >
> > > First I question the efficiency of the Amcor Nanomax
> > A12000E.
> > > Assume, arbitrarily my room temperature is 75
> > degrees. The unit
> > > is inside the room so it does not have a condenser
> > sitting outside
> > > in 95 degree air. It's easy to remove the heat
> > because it is doing
> > > it at the expense of my cool room air.
> >
> > The EER is the amount of cooling BTUs, over the amount
> > of Watts. EER is usually based on performance at 95°F.
> > Most of the air movement is from the room, then back
> > into
> > the room (after being cooled). The exhaust hose is
> > only to
> > carry the heat and moisture away, in what should be a
> > smaller air stream.
> >
> > > Now what I thought-- assumed, might make the Amcor
> > > extra efficient
> >
> > It seems to already be very efficient.
> >
> > > was that the condesate water was used to help cool
> > > the condenser (instead of using my cool inside air).
> >
> > That would require a continuous supply of cool water.
> > The maximum capacity of the unit is 38 pints/day,
> > which
> > is 1.58lb of water per hours, which would be a maximum
> > of about 1500BTU/hr if it were 100% evaporated by the
> > heat of the unit (not at all likely). The unit uses
> > 829 Watts
> > when on high. That represents 2833BTUs. 1500 is 53%
> > of that. I think that is more than could actually be
> > evaporated,
> > because it would require boiling the water, which is
> > likely to
> > cause more heat loss. That 1500 BTUds would be when
> > the unit is aready putting out 12000BTU/hr, and
> > already
> > carrying the water away. That appears to me ( I have
> > not
> > done a caculation on it, that it would require more
> > room
> > air to carry away the evaporated water, than it does
> > to
> > carry it away as mist. However, I suspect that since
> > the reservoir is near the compressor, that there is
> > already at least some of the heat transferred
> > directly to the water, before it is misted.
> >
> > > That way a problem (having to dump a bucket of
> > water)
> >
> > There is no "problem" of dumping water. The unit
> > offers
> > two options. 1) there is a drain tube, which can be
> > run to
> > a drain, sump, or outdoors. 2) There is a misting
> > attachment
> > for the tube, and a place to locate it in the exhaust
> > tube, so
> > that the water reservoir never needs to be emptied by
> > hand.
> > The water goes out the exhaust tube with the hot
> > air......In
> > other words, the heat of the air may evaporate the
> > water,
> > but only as it is going out the exhaust tube.
> >
> > > had been turned into an advantage (the superior heat
> > removal
> > > of water and the reduction of already cooled air
> > being wasted,
> > > by pumping it outside).
> >
> > Amcor has another line of portable AC, the "AL" line,
> > which also have a swamp cooler function. You might
> > find those interesting
> > .
> > >If I understand you correctly the Amcor merely blows
> > > hot exiting air over the water, making it evaporate
> > and
> > > producing no cooling advantage.
> >
> > No. The water is not evaporated.
> > It is misted into the exhaust air, inside the tube,
> > or it simply drains away, if a drain is available.
> >
> > > That only wastes the water!
> >
> > It is just condesate. The maximum is only 25oz/hr
> >
> > > I could run a hose to it and use it to water plants.
> >
> > Yes you could. That is one of the standard options
> > that they offer. The unit even pumps the water for
> > you.
> >
> > > Why waste the water when it could help cool.
> >
> > If your plants are in the house, then you are not
> > getting rid of the heat, that would be in the water.
> > The only way the 25oz/hr of water is going to
> > have a significant cooling effect, is if you
> > evaporate it, and exhaust it. Otherwise, you
> > will just have a little warm water, in your
> > house, releasing heat and humidity. Without
> > evaporation the water, will not be able to
> > absorb much more than maybe 30BTU.hr
> > I think the people at Amcor have a pretty
> > good idea of what is going on.
> >
> > > Is the EER number a fraud because it is stealing and
> > > exhausting my already cool air and appearing very
> > efficient
> > > because it is in working in a cool room that it is
> > exploiting
> > > while pumping warm air in at the same time?
> >
> > We don't know for sure. What we do know is that
> > compared to other portable units, it does more cooling
> > per Watt, and that there is nothing about the units
> > that
> > suggests it exhausts any more air than any other unit.
> >
> > However, in both of the configurations that I have
> > proposed (1 extracting additional heat from the Solar
> > heat storage, and 2) heating water), that is not a
> > factor,
> > because neither requires air to be exhausted to
> > outdoors.
> > In those cases the EER should stand on its own. Plus,
> > the additional 2833BTU/hr that it takes to operate the
> > unit, also goes into the heating of the house or
> > water,
> > increasing it efficiency even more...to a COP of 5.24
> >
> > However, there are still warnings: Quote:
> >
> > "Buyer Beware! Not all BTU ratings can be trusted.
> > Just because the BTU's are stated to be high on
> > specific
> > air conditioning units, this does not mean it is
> > necessarily
> > true. Some manufacturers will exaggerate the BTU's on
> > units to raise the possibility of selling them and
> > others will
> > be more conservative to cause lower EER ratings, so
> > keep
> > in mind that a low portable air conditioner EER may be
> > mis-
> > -leading. It is best not to allow the EER energy
> > rating to be
> > your only criteria for choosing an air conditioning
> > unit.
> > Research the unit you are considering for your home
> > and
> > you will be happier with your purchase. If you have
> > any
> > further questions, please go ahead and give us a
> > call."
> >
> > I have also noticed several online sellers, who claim
> > EERs that are very much higher than the manufacturers
> > rating, or than the BTU/Watts numbers posted on the
> > very same pages that falsely claim the exagerated
> > EERs.
> > But, the 14.46 EER for the A12000E is not the claim
> > of the manufacturer. It is the result of the claimed
> > BTU
> > output, and the claimed energy usage of the unit.
> > I calculated that EER.
> >
> > Even if it is a slight exageration, when used
> > as heat pump the COP should still be around
> > five, which means getting five times the heat
> > out of it (for the same electricity), as with an
> > electric resistance heater. Even if it were only
> > double, that is a huge improvement, and for
> > most people would be lower cost heat, than
> > from any other conventional energy source.
> >
> > I do not have a way to very accurately test
> > the energy output of the unit. However, the
> > only note I found, claiming that the Amcor unit
> > was not as efficient as claimed, was based on
> > the energy it used. I will be able to accurately
> > measure that.
> >
> >
> > -Laren Corie-
> > Natural Solar Building Designs, Since 1975
> > www.LarenCorie.com
> >
> >
> > 
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